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Friday, October 24, 2008

The Obama Citizenship Scandal

I admit immediately that I have no idea what is true yet, so please don't shoot the messenger. This whole mess is still in the early stages but I find it fascinating and there is a torrent of speculation. So, after a day of culling the interesting and verified facts, I wanted to share them with you.

Here's what we know so far:

Philip Berg

Attorney Philip J. Berg filed a lawsuit on Sept. 15, 2008, accusing Barack Obama of being born in the Coast Provincial General Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya. Berg also alleges that the DNC is guilty for not vetting Obama properly. Berg is, incidentally, a Democrat.

However, one needs to question why Berg filed the suit against Obama instead of demanding originals and evidence directly from the government of Hawaii. Not being an attorney, I really don't know. I suspect it was done this way because the publicity would be greater. This doesn't make the suit invalid, however, as documents and expert testimony will need to be brought into it.

The Documents

Included in the accusation are documents which back up Berg's assertion. Among the documents are Obama's alleged Kenyan birth certificate and testimonies of his Kenyan relatives who claim to have been present during his birth in Kenya.

The Admission

Due to the fact that the DNC and the Obama campaign didn't respond properly to the suit within 30 days of the filing, it is legally considered to be a tacit admission of guilt. Now Berg is demanding that Obama step down immediately and yesterday he filed a motion to expedite the resolution to force the DNC to replace Obama on the ticket.

Hawaiian Birth Certificate?

In response, the Obama campaign posted a supposed copy of his birth certificate from Hawaii. Experts seem to be divided as to whether it's a forgery or not. Here is a very convincing expert analysis of the document, including myriad pictures, with the conclusion that it is, indeed, a forgery.

Even if the birth certificate from Hawaii is genuine, Hawaii has a strange practice: They will issue Hawaiian birth certificates to people born outside of the USA. However, the Hawaiian birth certificate will name the birth country of origin and it does not make the person named a U.S. citizen.

In order to become a U.S. citizen under such circumstances, the candidate must publicly take an oath when he reaches the age of 18. There is no record of Obama doing so, nor would there be, since he claims he was born in Hawaii to begin with.

But this is a moot point, since the birth certificate that Obama displays claims his birth to be in Hawaii. Whether the birth certificate is genuine, altered, or completely forged is something that is still unknown. At least, unknown to the general public.


Kenyan Birth Certificate?

Three other experts have acquired copies of the Kenyan birth certificate, and all verify that it exists and it's genuine. It's extremely doubtful that another child of the same name, same parents, and same birthdate would be born in the Coast Provincial General Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya when one was being born in Hawaii. (Incidentally, Obama will not release the name of the hospital in which he was purportedly born in Hawaii.)

An Inconvenient Law

There is a funny U.S. law that says that if a woman is under 21 and gives birth in a foreign country, that child is not a U.S. citizen unless he is born on U.S. soil (such as a military base or embassy). Obama's mother was 18 at the time of his birth.

Obama's Dual Citizenship

Incidentally, Obama travelled on an Indonesian passport when he went to Pakistan in 1981 at the age of 20. In order to have an Indonesian passport, you must have citizenship. Oddly, under Indonesian law, you cannot be an Indonesian citizen and have dual citizenship, so Obama would have had to renounce his U.S. citizenship.

Obama did admit recently that he was born with dual citizenship(?) but claims that it isn't a big deal, as his Indonesian citizenship expired in 1982. That may not be a problem for most people, until you understand that this makes Obama ineligible under Article II of the Constitution.

You see, Article II requires that the President must be a “natural born citizen”, and in terms of the law as understood by the Founding Fathers, anyone with Dual Citizenship couldn't be “natural born”. It doesn't matter that they no longer hold that other country's citizenship. They fall into the same bracket as a “naturalized citizen” because they have / had divided allegiance.

Why Wasn't This Addressed When Obama Ran for the Senate?

Some people are arguing that this must have been covered already, as Obama has held office in the Senate. Here's why that argument is invalid:

1. Senators are far less important than the President of the United States. If someone is concealing something, it's much easier to hold a lower office and get away with it. Presidential candidates come under far more scrutiny.

2. Senators don't have to be natural born citizens. They can originate from other countries, and the only requirement is that they've been U.S. citizens for a minimum of nine years.

Why is Obama in Hawaii Right Now?

Many people feel that his convenient rush to a sickly grandmother's bedside is hardly the real purpose for his running to Hawaii. After all, he has disparagingly painted her as a bitter, racist old lady (even though she raised him). Interestingly, she was not there at the DNC nomination, either. It's as if they had arrived at an uneasy truce until now: You go your way, I'll go mine.

But now Obama suddenly jets off, with the claim that his grandmother is ailing fast and he must attend to her? Some pundits are wondering if he really may be attempting to shore up a cover-up which is coming apart. If so, he would certainly need grandma's help and greasing a few palms has always been the tried and true method of politicians for centuries. If this is the case, it won't be easy for Obama, as the press will be watching avidly.

If Obama is, in fact, a Kenyan-born citizen, the game is probably over. In that case, he may suddenly have a press conference announcing that he had always thought that he was a U.S. citizen but that over his grandma's sick bed, he just learned that he had been born in Kenya. He'll give a toothy grin, a "shucks, ya'll" apology. Whoops, my bad.

And Hillary will be back on the ticket.

Update on Obama Birth Certificate

From
Daily Nation:

"A US federal judge on Friday rejected a lawsuit claiming Senator Barack Obama is ineligible to seek the presidency because he was either born in Kenya or is a citizen of Indonesia.

It is not clear whether the Supreme Court will review Mr Berg's plea for a hearing prior to the November 4 election."
This is not due to any facts presented, but because the judge says that individual citizens do not have the right to bring such a suit.

62 comments:

Ed Abbey said...

There are no physical copies of a Kenyan birth certificate, only people who CLAIM to have seen it. The other bit of proof is a lengthy analysis of a SCANNED image. So our alternative is to vote for someone born in Panama?

Saur, give me a break with your fear mongering!

False Rumor

Saur♥Kraut said...

Ed, McCain was born in Panama on U.S. soil. That's a big difference.

And please don't label me as a 'fear mongerer'. That's pretty silly - you know me better than that.

And as you know, just because someone claims it's a false rumor doesn't make it so. Since that article was written, additional arguments and evidence have come to hand, so it's hardly valid at this stage until they revise it with fact.

We may not have seen physical evidence of the Kenyan birth certificate, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And the Hawaiian one could be forged.

But as I said at the beginning, this is in the early stages and much of this we simply can't know for certain.

Ed Abbey said...

Yeah I know there is a big difference but I had to throw that in there that both candidates have had their birth rights dragged through the mud. I think it is lame and fear mongering.

Although I wouldn't label you as a fear mongerer based upon your past posts, I still think this post is nothing but fear mongering. There is absolutely no evidence that A) another birth certificate exists or B) that the one that does exist has been forged. Yet you are propogating it just the same as the handful of neo-conservative sites that do nothing but this sort of fear mongering. I'm an engineer and thus rational. I prefer to let the facts unfold before propogating rumors or theories.

In the end, this won't affect me even if it were true. I've already made up my mind to vote for Chuck Balwin.

P.S. I think my security word for verifying my comment is particularly appropriate. It was "rants".

Saur♥Kraut said...

Ed, Rants, huh? Funny!

News is such a delicate thing. When do you report and discuss it?

Do you wait until everyone has authenticated every dot and tittle? Do you wait until someone else has scooped you? Do you wait until it's not news any more?

I decided to report this as objectively as possible, while giving it the coverage that I think it deserves.

Ed Abbey said...

That is a good point and I think it should be mentioned. My feeling is that you went beyond being objective. But that is my opinion only and perhaps Lazy's as well.

In the end, you certainly are entitled to present it as you see fit and I am entitled to label it as fear mongering. It was the first that I have heard of the issue so you got the scoop for me.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Ed, Well, I do try to be objective. It's tough, because in this case I feel that Obama is covering something up, since his Kenyan grandmother swears she was at his birth in Kenya.

On the other hand, as I've said repeatedly, I don't like him much less than McCain. Neither one of them is my dream date.

Lazy is very pro-Obama, so that's one area where I'd argue that he is somewhat prejudiced in favor of the candidate.

One area that still bothers me is Obama's faith. So many people (including Lazy) decry any doubters. They point to Obama's claim that he's a Christian.

But as I've repeatedly said, according to Muhammad himself it's OK to lie about your Muslim faith as long as you have a good reason to do so.

We hold the Muslim faith to Western-Christian standards when we need to realize that their values, standards, and viewpoints are radically different.

So, knowing that Obama's youth was steeped in the Muslim faith and he was surrounded by Muslims (including having a Muslim parent), and knowing that it has been trendy for years to be a black Muslim in the U.S., I see it as quite conceivable that he is truly a Muslim.

Of course it's also possible that he isn't.

But: The possibility that Obama is a Muslim is much greater than the possibility that McCain is.

I'd like to add that many Muslims outside the USA believe that Obama is a closet Muslim. For one example, go to This YouTube Video.

So, you begin to see that I try to be objective, but I cannot escape facts and reports, nor can I escape logic.

Scott said...

Sorry, was reading the comments section and i have to say that the whole idea that Obama is a closet Muslim is such a wild thing to think. What do you think will happen, he will be elected President and then launch an internal Jihad. I think Bush did enough of that as a devout Christian.

Even if a Muslim wanted to run for President why would it matter. The whole separation of Church and State is in the Constitution no? Oh wait, that is really a myth. Pretty tough to find a nation that is more 'defender of the faith' than the US.

From the original post I also think that it is irresponsible to go beyond the facts of the Citizenship case. Such as speculation as to why he is in Hawaii right now. That he may be there to 'shore' up his story is pretty outlandish conjecture.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Anon, Sorry, I don't allow anonymous content when it's so filled with hatred. If you'd like to be honest and stand up for your comments (as most of us do), then repost with a valid name.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Scott, I will admit that part was conjecture (obviously). After all, conjecture happens in many editorials, so it's hardly wrong to do so. And... Won't it be interesting to see if it happens?

I can't help you with your lack of belief. I've read the Quran, and I've read many supporting commentaries on it, and I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the Muslim faith. If you've got similar studying under your belt, I'd love to hear a good argument against Muhammad's open statement that lying about your Muslim faith is acceptable.

Do I think he's a Manchurian candidate? I honestly don't know. When I was young, I never believed in conspiracy theories, but I'm grown up now.

Still, my bet would be that he's Muslim Lite.

Ed Abbey said...

On a side note, I watched that video that you linked to and even though I'm not an expert, it is obviously faked. The purported translation says Allah, Attah and several other Muslim words and yet the children never said any of those words. Every video clip I've ever seen that talks about Allah has the person doing the talking actually saying Allah. Also, every hate video I've seen from the Muslim sector has the people doing the chants a little more angry looking than those kids. I'd be willing to bet any amount of money you care to wager that a translation of that video is not even remotely close to what scrolls on the bottom of the screen.

undergroundlogician said...

Saur:

Your post is again, why I have a link on my blogsite to yours. Simply an awesome job. You put quite a bit of time on this and you should be commended!

It is interesting in the field of debate, that when someone such as Ed, who feels his opinions very strongly, comes against you, and uses tactics that are meant to discredit you. It is very effective to sway opinion, but very telling of how the person actually thinks or respects you. (And Ed, just a word to you, your tactics clearly show your lack of concern for the truth in the matter, and shows you to be a willing student of the rhetoric employed in the Obama campaign. However, your statement of your lack of concern for how the issue actually pans out and your support for "Chuckie" is a bit confusing. If you are as objective as you say you are, you would have at least admitted the futility of the Obama rhetoric. I sense that you are feigning objectivity, which again lends nothing to your argument.)

In logic world, this personal attack is called ad hominem, a diversionary tactic that is fallacious as can be. Rhetorically, it is used so often that it becomes an accepted tool to dismantle opposing arguments. But, in the world of truth, it is evidence, circumstances, eyewitness accounts, and actions or lack of them on the subject in question that become the pointers that inductive thinkers use. In court, these are the building blocks that assist jurors in piecing together the scenario in question.

If Obama is a legal citizen of the US, so be it. He has a right to run for office, and I hope this is the case. I would hate to have false charges trumped up against him now only to find out that these charges were false and a viable candidate was wrongfully disgarded. I think the choices between Obama and McCain give us an adequate choice between a Socialist direction or a Quasi-Republic direction. Frankly, I think McCain will provide problems for Conservatism down the road, but as it stands, we cannot afford an Obama presidency, given what history shows about the policies of economic Socialism, and its natural political arm, Communism. You cannot implement the policies of Socialism unless you take the choice away from people to implement it. People naturally see the restrictions to freedom in this economic straight-jacket and will not go along with it.

I can see martial-law being implemented in order to solidify the political structure needed to establish Socialistic policies. Is this what Senator Biden is alluding to in the upcoming "test" of a President Obama? Who knows but those who are developing these futuristic scenarios. This is a huge warning sign that needs to be investigated by our mute, lap-dog lobodomized media.

Ed Abbey said...

UL - I am a simple man. There was no tactic to what I said. No hidden agenda. I said what I thought.

Saur - Here is the translation to that video which was more fear mongering on the part of whoever originally created it.

The first child is reading/reciting the first three verses of Sura Mulk (The Sovereignty). He says the following:
“Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim”
“Tabarak Alladhi bi yadihil mulk, wa huwa ala kulli shay in kadeer. Alladhi khalaqal mawta wal hayaata li yabli wakaum ayyukum ahsanu aamala, wa huwa azeezul ghafoor….” Sura Mulk 1-3
…which translates to the following:
“In the name of God, most Gracious, most Compassionate
Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power. He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.He Who created the seven heavens one above another: No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of ((Allah)) Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again: seest thou any flaw?”

The second child is reading/reciting the first seven verses from Sura Tariq (The Morning Star). The sura describes the creation of man from a drop emitted “from between backbone and ribs” (sc. semen, which is emitted from the prostate gland [1]). It also states that every human being has a guardian. The final part of the sura predicts the resurrection of all people at the Judgment Day.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Saur please, I'm SO shooting the messenger. This is nearly as bad as the email going round saying he is a devil worshipper and went to Kenya to put a juju on McCain and Palin, or even worse that he is (SHOCK HORROR) an Arab!

(cue idiots running to the hills, where hopefully, they will eaten by bears cleverer than they are)

You shouldn't promote fiction like this, its all part of a nasty game by the GOP and Christian Right to try and make out that Obama is 'un-American' because he is about to win.

And UL, rather like Saur, you seem to have failed to have read the massive array of debunking on this silly matter.

*sigh*

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Link to birth certificate here

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Obama's website deals with this nonsense here and a full independent legal rebuttal of the sheer lack of evidence of this fucking awful and pointless claim by subhuman degenerates is here.

The fact that this discussion is even being had is perhaps the biggest pointer to why America maybe deserves 4 more years of GOP mismanagement and a total leading into the hinterlands of the political spectrum.

Ed Abbey said...

Here is an article by Newsweek which includes pictures of the raised seal, Alvin T. Onaka's signature stamp, creases and other things that your posted source listed as missing in their "expert" analysis to complement Daniel's links.

Uncle Joe said...

good job saur.
true or not, it's worth checking into.

the sad thing is that there are riots on the horizon no matter who wins.

M@ said...

Ahhhh, I don't imagine the New York Times would be reporting on this. Or the Washington Post.

El-oh-el.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Uncle Joe:

Er...No, it has no value and is not worth checking out...ever..AT ALL.

The Lazy Iguana said...

I am still waiting for Fox to break the "sex scandal" case. So far nothing. Not a peep.

This is just more OLD bullshit. And that is what it is - bullshit. Obama was in fact born in Hawaii - a few years after it became a state.

There is no "evidence". As for responding in court - how would you respond if someone filed a lawsuit against you claiming you are in fact an alien invader from Mars? Remember - failing to waste your time responding to it means you are in fact GUILTY and are an alien invader from Mars.

There is more than just a birth certificate. There are hospital records. There is a newspaper announcement of the birth. And so on.

The WHOLE state of Hawaii would have to be in on the cover up. All public officials.

This is a LAME ATTEMPT by the far right to hijack yet another election. And it is not working.

By the way, lets assume for a second that way back then someone did forge a birth certificate, hospital records, and so on. Lets say a phony newspaper birth announcement was placed.

Why?? So in 40 some odd years a half black person could run for President of the USA? Not even Nostradamus predicted a black guy would run for POTUS and have a chance of winning.

Either way you look at this, the only conclusion you can draw is that it is ridiculous. So silly, it would not even be in a Monty Python sketch. So convoluted that it could not even be used for a season of "24".

If there are "riots" after the election because Obama wins - it is the fault of the right. The fear mongering, "he is a closet muslim", "he is a closet satanist", "Powell only endorsed him because of race", "he is not a Christian", bullshit spreading, anti progress, anti science, anti 21st century, want to throw this nation BACK in time 600 years so we can burn more witches, right.

And this is why I sincerely hope Obama dominates the swing states. By a large margin, and not just a few hundred votes cast by old people who swore that they did not vote for Buchanan. Then MAYBE the Republican party can totally melt down, kick out the neo-cons that drug it in to the pit of despair,clean house, and reemerge as something more reasonable than it is now.

Oh yea - they will also need to redefine their base. If you are behind by 10 - 15 points in the national polls, and can only hope to win by some electoral college scam, then you are NOT mainstream. Your base is NOT mainstream.

By the way, I am still waiting for the far left liberal wacko Fox News to break that "sex scandal" story. Still nothing on that in the time it took to type this.

If the best the far right can go with now is "but he is not a citizen" then the election is over. Is there any low the Republicans will not stoop to?

Apparently not. It does not matter what the facts are. Who needs those anyway? If you can win by wasting the courts time with lawsuits that have no merit - its all good.

But I bet that when this goes nowhere (as it has) it is because of no good "liberal activist" judges right?

And by "liberal activist" judge of course I mean "any judge who does not rule EXACTLY THE WAY the right wants them to". That makes you an activist.

For the good of this Country, I seriously hope that the far right gets the shit smacked out of it this election season. Let them lose it all. This way the REAL BASE of the party, those who are far more moderate, will tell those who think they are the base to sit down and shut the hell up so the grown-ups can talk.

Until that happens, I will continue to vote straight Democrat.

Even if that means voting for former Hialeah Mayor Raul Martinez. Look him up if you want some class A reading. But even so - knowing it all - I voted for him. Why? Because Lincoln Diaz-Bilart is one of them. A neo-con. Far more dangerous than even Raul Martinez - who should be banned from public office.

You know, sometimes just because the media, even Fox News, ignores something does not mean it is a vast cover up of the "facts". Sometimes it just means that the conspiracy theory is so insane that it is not worth a pound of table salt.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Ed, First of all, thank you SO MUCH for correcting me about that video. You know - I was suspicious of it because it seemed SO very ...convenient. I should have known better and not mentioned that in my comments section. It was sent to me originally via a close friend and I didn't question the source.

That video needs to be yanked from YouTube immediately, and I'll flag it. I ask you to do the same.

I do want to add in my defense that in the post itself, I did double check all my sources. Of course, this doesn't mean I'm infallible.

And finally, it doesn't change the fact that many Muslims outside of the USA are anxious for Obama to be elected, and this IS documented by genuine sources.

UL, Thanks so much for jumping in. I like this part so much that I really need to repost it here because I truly couldn't have said it better myself:

If Obama is a legal citizen of the US, so be it. He has a right to run for office, and I hope this is the case. I would hate to have false charges trumped up against him now only to find out that these charges were false and a viable candidate was wrongfully disgarded. I think the choices between Obama and McCain give us an adequate choice between a Socialist direction or a Quasi-Republic direction. Frankly, I think McCain will provide problems for Conservatism down the road, but as it stands, we cannot afford an Obama presidency, given what history shows about the policies of economic Socialism, and its natural political arm, Communism. You cannot implement the policies of Socialism unless you take the choice away from people to implement it. People naturally see the restrictions to freedom in this economic straight-jacket and will not go along with it.

I can see martial-law being implemented in order to solidify the political structure needed to establish Socialistic policies. Is this what Senator Biden is alluding to in the upcoming "test" of a President Obama? Who knows but those who are developing these futuristic scenarios. This is a huge warning sign that needs to be investigated by our mute, lap-dog lobodomized media.

Daniel,
Good thing I'm wearing a bullet-proof vest today. ;o)

There ARE sites that disagree with this. I'm not a breathless, starry-eyed McCain follower.

In fact, I ignored this whole ruckus when I first heard of it. But as time goes by, and problems continue, I grow more intrigued.

Of course Obama's website denies all the allegations - he would be foolish not to.

Ed, I will certainly check out the Time article.

But again, documents can be forged, raised seal and all. We're very familiar with that in Florida, California, and Texas where illegals continually procure believable birth certificates and drivers licenses.

What I'd REALLY like to see is a statement from the Hawaiian government confirming or denying his birth certificate is genuine.

M@, I'm sure you're right.

Lazy, my good friend, I certainly agree that no one would forge documents back then with the hopes that Obama would be running for President. So, if all is well, we will soon find out one way or the other.

As I said at the beginning, I don't know. But I find the increasing babble to be something I can't ignore any more. That doesn't mean that Obama's a Kenyan citizen, but it's of interest to me.

As I just said to Ed, what I'd REALLY like to see is a statement from the Hawaiian government confirming or denying his birth certificate is genuine.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Uncle Joe, Oops! I left you out of that long comment I just left. Sorry about that. Thanks, and it will be interesting to see where this goes! Could be nothing/could be something.

daveawayfromhome said...

Oh Yeahhhhhhhhhh!

The Lazy Iguana said...

Since when do States have to issue statements confirming that official state documents are in fact state documents?

I had to prove citizenship to get my passport. I got a COPY of my birth certificate from the County, as I had misplaced the original.

I did not have to go to the Mayor's office to get a letter from him confirming that the document is real. Likewise, I did not have to get the Governor of the state to issue any statements either.

How is the cop to know your drivers license is valid? Can you prove it is? Remember - just because it is in the DMV database does not mean anything! Things can be forged! Can the governor of Florida personally vouch for you? How about the mayor?

Do you see now just how crazy this all is?

The right has, and will, try anything they can think of to get their way. They could have ran an honest campaign, but no. It was better to have Fox News make up stuff, so that more stuff could be spread over the internet, even if it was all made up and is all untrue.

So you know what? Why can't the ass who made up the lawsuit produce the document? How about any proof that the Hawaii birth certificate is forged? It would be easy enough to do you know. You know why? Because it never existed. It was all made up.

The intention was simply to give ultra right blogs "evidence" so that they could make up even more crap, using the court case as "proof", so that it could be emailed to everyone and discredit Obama. Based on nothing.

Same - and yes SAME - as the muslim bullcrap. Like that you tube video. Get some kid speaking arabic (which most people do not understand) then make up subtitle translations. Then mail it off as "authentic". It does not matter if it was all made up - for the ends justify the means!!

What ever happened to the Republican party that could win WITHOUT Fox News and the spreading of much bullshit?

Oh yea - I forget! It was taken over by the neo-cons, who will use anything - even religion - to win. By the way, that is the only reason why the neo-cons keep talking about pro life and no fags getting married. They really do not care. They just use those two wedge issues, which play to people's faith - do divide the nation and win elections.

Ill say it again. The SOONER the neo-cons are wiped off the map the better off the nation, and the world, will be.

And THAT is why I voted for Obama. He is the only choice. He is the only thing that can kill, or at least set back, the neo-cons. And for that he hot my vote.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Lazy, We continue to agree to disagree. I'm not a raving lunatic, so you'll have to simply accept the fact that I see things differently than you do. I still value you as a friend, and I'm glad you can disagree.

That being said, in this particular case the state of Hawaii really does need to step in and say something at this point. The reason states don't usually authenticate is that they're not usually asked to. But we all know (in this day and age) that there are plenty of forgeries to go around.

No one is questioning McCain's citizenship, but if they were, then I would say someone needs to authenticate his documentation as well.

AQ said...

Has anyone noticed that the Obama Birth Certificate is a COPY - not the original? It is printed on a form that was revised in 11/01.

Not that that proves anything. I'm just sayin'

Here's a link to a funny cartoon Click here

Just wanted to add a lighter side...

daveawayfromhome said...

Funny, but a few years ago when Schwartzenegger was so popular, folks were talking about making it possible for non-natives to become president. My, my, my, how times (, a black liberal and a bogus "news" story) do change things.

Saur♥Kraut said...

AQ, funny cartoon - thanks for sharing!!!

Dave, Don't count me in that group. I don't want to change the Constitution one whit, and I'm fine with Ahnold keeping his distance from the White House. There are plenty of better candidates out there.

Don't know what bogus news story you're talking about. If you're referring to this one - rumors are news. And I didn't discuss this for months. But the rumors continue to swell.

Where there's smoke, there's fire(?)

Then again, maybe it's nothing. Time will tell.

Jungle Mom said...

Saur, No one mentions the Indonesian Passport. That would be the citizenship of his step father, correct? How would Obama get Indonesian citizenship, without denouncing his American citizenship when he was not born in Indonesia or of an Indonesian parent?
My friend , who is American but raised in Peru, also had the problem of having a child overseas before her 20th birthday. She had to naturalize the child in court as an American, in order to pass on the US citizenship to him. He is not natural born, but a naturalized citizen.
In order to get an Indonesian Passport, wouldn't he have had to have been naturalized as an Indonesian?
That is problematic, even more than the certificates.
Of course, McCain was born of two US citizens, on a military base. My children were all born overseas, but of two US citizens, so they are natural born citizens.

Jungle Mom said...

OH! And I doubt the media would have time to pursue this as they are very busy reporting the cost of Palin's wardrobe.

Uncle Joe said...

Jungle Mom,
I always enjoy reading your perspective.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

This is like returning to the scene of a terrible crime, Hitler's bunker perhaps, you know you shouldn't, nothing can be gained but it is so tempting.

Evidence has been presented, clear and present and yet Saur, AQ, Jungle Mom and Uncle Joe seem dead set to perpetuate this terrible myth that has no standing whatsoever in fact, reality or truth.

Just admit, there is large part of the US population that doesn't want a black Democrat running the country and that seems to include you and anyone who wants to push these non-truth, half stories that are disgusting SMEARS, that in NO other nation would be given creedence or airtime.

8 years of the disgusting Bush regime have left the American people more scarred than I imagined, what an insidous and terrible leftover of a President seemingly deserved by a nation.

Finally, the no smoke without fire attitude is not only simplistic but also wrong and not a means to make an argument.

A simple example of this would be if I and other bloggers decided to out...let's say UL, as a hypocritcal sodomite who also attacks children.

Clearly we'd have made that up but it would be easy for me and others to begin such a campaign, based on nothing but a dislike of the person being smeared and spread the news through various outlets.

No smoke without fire, yes?

We've had enough of homespun, puesdo tag-lines, hopefully Obama will usher in a new, less mean-spirited era.

We can but hope.

The Lazy Iguana said...

Jungle Mom - In most states you can not even rent a jet ski if you are under 18. But you think that a 6 year old can "renounce" US citizenship? Some nations do allow for dual citizenship. The USA is not one of them - but the USA also turns a blind eye to MANY Jewish people who have a passport from Israel (which does allow dual citizenship)and retain their US passport as well.

Also a lot of ex-pats who work overseas hold foreign passports while they work overseas. When they come home they travel on their US passport - when they go back to work they use their foreign passport.

At any rate, I do think that US law says a person must be of voting age in order to decide if they want to renounce US citizenship. A 6 year old kid is not legally allowed to make ANY sort of major decision on their own - how could they decide to renounce US citizenship? That is nuts.

Saur - Obama is back on the trail from Hawaii. And no revelation! No sick bed confession! It seems he was actually going to Hawaii to visit with his sick elderly grandmother. And here I thought only Republicans gave a crap about family. Silly me.

I do not think you are a lunatic. I DO think you are listening to lunatic sources however. Rabid foaming at the mouth right wing sources.

Do yourself a favor. Get satellite radio and listen to music you like in the car. Ditch the AM radio. Nothing worth listening to is there.

Hawaii does not need to say anything, because - once again - the birth certificate is an official state document. How do you verify the validity of one official document with another official document? What if the verification is forged? What if the governor of the state knows the birth certificate is fake but is in on the scam so they lie about the validity?

Face it. The right wing political movement has failed. Miserably. And now it is cracking up. So desperate to hold onto power, and force the nation further to the right than it wants to go - that no straw is too short to grasp at. So desperate that standing in the mirror to carve a B in your face (so it appears backwards) and then blaming it on a big scary black man seems like a reasonable thing to do.

The movement is cracking up. Rapidly. The Bush legacy is toast, as is McCain's campaign.

It is time for the Republican party to move a lot further to the center, disown the "base", distance itself from the neo-cons, and get back to reality. It is clear that the base of the con party is not even close to the majority. Not by a long shot.

Of course some of us always knew this. It took the rest of America to figure this out - but better late than never. And it is very late.

Here is what you need to do. Run these internet rumors past the sniff test. Check the Fox News website. If the rumor is not splashed all over the main webpage - then it is NOT TRUE!

Or try to convince yourself that the rumors are true - and Fox is part of the liberal elite media.

Jungle Mom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jungle Mom said...

Lazy, All my children have dual citizenship. It is different if both parents are US citizens. Obama's are not. His biological father is not Indonesian nor was he born there. He has no right to this after the age of 18 without surrendering his US citizenship. He traveled on the passport at age 20. Not at age 6.

AQ said...

Daniel, It would be nice if you could debate ideas and issues without spouting assumptions and character asaults. Saying that those who question Obama's position on the issues are racist and liars is not bringing anything to the discussion. Just shows that you have no real reason to support the candidate you choose to support.

Frankly, I don't care about the question on the table - Obama's citizenship. And I don't think that the uncertainty about it should be the reason someone doesn't vote for him.

I applaud Obama for identifying the problems in our country. I think he has a great handle on the issues that the average citizen faces. My problem with Obama is his ideas on how to FIX those problems. Nearly all of them are socialistic. Socialism is what irritates me. My family has not worked as hard as we have worked to get where we are just so we can give most of it to those who have a less-than-average work ethic. If we start being forced to turn over an even larger percentage of our income, I will quit my job so that my family can be on the receiving end instead. (We are in the middle of middle class.) I'd much rather volunteer in our schools and libraries anyway, it's more fun.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Well said Lazy, very well put and yet, still, Jungle Mom argues the toss over this frankly silly and irrelevent point.

The matter stands that Obama can run for President.

Full bloody stop.

Or period, as you Americans say.

AQ:
There is no idea or issue to debate here, that is the whole bloody point.

The matter of Obama's 'Americaness' is a non-starter, unless of ocurse, you're an idiot.

As for laying the charge of rascism, I so so becuase the colour of his skin is clearly and unfortunately an issue, otherwise the demonising of him as non-American, or Arab or Muslim would have no part to play in an adult discussion but US politics seems to be a long way off from adult.

And then you go and use the 's' word: socialist.

I can assure you that Obama is not a socialist by ANY stetch of the imagination and as a European, we know one of two things about socialism as that's how most of Euope is run and Obama is A LONG WAY OFF.

What is more amusing is your fear of socialism, in fact most Americans terror at the word, as if the idea of America becoming socialist is a bad thing, when in reality it would improve the country no end.

If only Obama was a socialist but unluck for you and the rest of us, he is just merely, a Democrat.

daveawayfromhome said...

I'm curious, I hear lots of conservatives decry "socialism", but without any kind of explaination as to why exactly this socialism is bad, outside of a shadowy "they want to take our money away". Funny thing though, if all the money in the U.S. were gathered up by Obama and "redistributed", 4 out of 5 people would be better off (2 out of 5 would be about 200 times better off).
I'm not saying I'm in favor of this, but neither do I see what there is to fear, especially since it will never happen.

Right now, I pay thousands in taxes every year, and in return I get disfunctional schools, crumbling infrastructure, an expensive war that doesnt seem to have resulted in anything good, corporations that have more rights than I do, and an ever more expensive service sector which has only gotten more expensive as the regulations which "stifle" business have been loosed. And, God forbid, should I get sick, that will cost me pretty much everything, as it has so many others in this country.

And dont blame government. Unless you want to blame Republican government: if you hire people to do a job who say that the job cant be done, dont be surprised when they botch it. Personally, I prefer to vote for someone who thinks that government can work, then I know that any screw-ups on their part are either incompetence or corruption, rather than deliberate destruction.

Maybe we could use a little socialism. The every-man-for-himself full-bore capitalism we've been operating under lately hasnt worked terribly well (or perhaps, considering the gathering of power and money in fewer and fewer hands, a bit too well).
And seriously, AQ, is money really the only thing that motivates you? Because, if so, that's pretty sad. And telling.

Kathleen said...

Man! Does he ever stop with the gas about how sub-standard Americans are?

Let us all bow in reverence and awe to the erudite European who knows so much about the way we should run our country. Gosh, maybe we should reconsider the revolution. Damn forefathers and rabble rousing patriots! Come on all you war mongering, fat, stupid, brash and brazen Americans...stand up and give Daniel the 180 bow with the appropriate wind instrument anthem.

Back to the issue you began, Saur. I don't believe that there is validity to the accusation about his nationality, but this is America and we still have the right to discuss issues freely. More power to you.

daveawayfromhome said...

Here's a link to a funny cartoon Click here

Just wanted to add a lighter side...

The Lazy Iguana said...

So now there is a passport scandal!!!

You know, it is strange that not a word of this can be found on the Fox News website. You think that Fox, the network that hired Rove, is really part of the vast liberal media cover up?

I also checked Google, and the only references to this "scandal" I can find are the typical circle jerk right wing blogs, all parroting what other blogs say.

And thus my reason for voting for Obama. I will not be swayed by the BS. The more false things that were spread, the more of an Obams supporter I became.

When the Republican party is taken over by grown ups again, Ill think about voting for them. But as long as the party wants to play in the sandbox - and claim that Susie or Johnny has cooties so I should not vote for them to be this weeks line leader - Ill never even consider voting for ANY Republican.

Even if that means voting for Raul Martinez - a well known Miami crook. Google Raul Martinez if you want some amusing reading. In his case, what you read is likely true.

When I vote for the former mayor of Hialeah - something is wrong. Very wrong. And what is wrong is that the alternative to Raul is a Republican. And also a crook. Google Lincoln Diaz-Bilart for some amusing reading as well. Both men are crooks really.

The Diaz-Bilart brothers have represented Miami in Congress for a long time. I sincerely hope they are BOTH voted out in total disgrace.

And yes, I mean that.

Jungle Mom said...

Interesting that the 'loving left' are so angry if one even asks a simple question, don't answer the question, just call the inquirer silly names. Quite a mature response, is it not? What I expect from a 10 year old, not a person eligible for the vote Very, very, telling.
I have lived under Socialism and I say,"No thank you!"

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Dave: well made point indeed regarding socialism, more erudite than I ever could be, I use too many swear words.

Kathleen: it is hard in the current political environment to not think that those that voted for 8 years of a frankly disgusting political regime, are in some way mentally unbalanced. It is also hard, with the constant stream of smears on Obama, to not look down one's nose at those that perpetuate such nasty myths.

Of course we all have the freedom to discuss what we want but we don'thave a right that all ideas are to be considered equal.

Jungle Mom: Loving left? Where you get the idea that I'm on the left on that the left are loving but if throwing around political cliche is your thing then fine; all I'm bothered about is grown-up political debate not smears. It is amusing you accuse others here of behaving like children when in reality your partizan political belief structure doesn't allow you and others to see this non-story for what it is: the actions of a desperate ruling elite trying to cling onto power by smearing others playground insults.

Where have you lived under socialism I wonder? Canada?

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Oh and Jungle Mom, it is not a simple question, it is political smearing with no basis in fact.

Rather like me asking the simple question, is Jungle Mom a terrorist?

No basis in fact but a simple question, yes?

AQ said...

And seriously, AQ, is money really the only thing that motivates you? Because, if so, that's pretty sad. And telling.

No, you must have missed the part where I said I'd rather volunteer.

I work because my family needs me to in order to pay to live in a decent neighborhood and drive a decent car, buy food. Far above the poverty I grew up in, but nowhere near the wealthy level.
We pay thousands in taxes too - and you've actually made my point, I think:

"Right now, I pay thousands in taxes every year, and in return I get disfunctional schools, crumbling infrastructure, an expensive war that doesnt seem to have resulted in anything good, corporations that have more rights than I do, and an ever more expensive service sector which has only gotten more expensive as the regulations which "stifle" business have been loosed. And, God forbid, should I get sick, that will cost me pretty much everything, as it has so many others in this country."

So, you're saying you're paying thousands, and what you're getting is crappy, so you want to pay MORE.

Don't bash me, I'm in this discussion to learn why those of you believe as you do - not to make you believe what I do. I'm not hard core in either direction. That's why I'm "Always Questioning - AQ" But the insults only lead me to believe you either don't have any real reason to parade your party line, or you're not interested in leading others to share your beliefs. It certaintly doesn't make me want to be more like your "side".

Saur♥Kraut said...

Everyone, A few things, please.

1. No personal attacks. If you're not mature enough to debate in a clearheaded manner, please do not debate here. If you have gone overboard and you need to apologize to someone, you will gain both their and my respect.

2. As I stated up-front, I do not know if these facts are true. I do know that they're news, and I believe it's time to discuss it. Any views, both pro and con, are welcome.

3. I do not particularly like either candidate. In many ways, Obama may be the better candidate for me personally, as health care is eating me alive and I may need major surgery soon.

However, I also must vote for the good of my country and not myself, and I feel that Obama could do a great deal more damage than McCain could.

I base this decision not on the information in this post, but on that fact that Obama is the most liberal Senator we have, and we have Supreme Court Justices coming up for grabs shortly. Additionally, if certain programs and/or policies are put in place, even if they're wrong, it's almost impossible to dismantle them later. I believe that if we give Obama 4 years, there could be tremendous damage done.

4. I believe that a vote for any other candidate besides Obama or McCain is a throwaway vote.

I'm truly sorry to say so (because I'd love a viable option) and I have friends that are doing protest votes (as Ed is doing) but as there is absolutely no chance of any other candidate winning, we really need to seriously focus on (and vet) the two primary candidates.

Kathleen said...

"Funny thing though, if all the money in the U.S. Were gathered up by Obama and "redistributed", 4 out of 5 people would be better off (2 out of 5 would be about 200 times better off)."

Dave, I too would be `"better off." So why don't I think it is a good idea? Because I would be "better off" for a short and unsustainable period of time. Once you penalize inspiration, innovation, hard work and reward you create a system that could be compared in success to our public school system today. While the initial celebration might be a fun party, the hangover afterward would be ugly.

Tea and Margaritas in My Garden said...

Interesting things going on with this election on your patch of soil.
This truly must be the most intensely world-watched US election ever.

tea
xo

michelle said...

Saur,
You mention healthcare. That reason alone is why you should vote for McCain. I'm not sure I would stay working in any hospital if Obama does what he suggests. Like AQ, I may as well quit and be on the recieving end of the redistributed taxes and spend my days volunteering at my son's school.

Three Score and Ten or more said...

It appears that the Supreme Court has ruled on the subject and declared Obama a natural born citizen (At least that's what PBS said Saturday morning)

Anonymous said...

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The Lazy Iguana said...

And you live under "socialism" if you live in the USA right now!

For example - unemployment. Everyone who works is against that - until they get downsized or dropped from the budget. Or their job is outsourced. Then they suddenly think the program is a good idea.

So lets get rid of unemployment. If you lose your job - OH WELL!

CHIP is also "socialist". So the kids of the poor, or the kids of those with no private insurance, can just get sick and die. Hell, jets bring back POLIO!! That will be fun.

Do away with WIC programs too. If you have no money and get knocked up - of course everyone demands that you keep the baby. But we do not want to pay a single dime for things like baby food or checkups for the mother.

If you have sick days or paid vacation days at work - demand that those go away too. Because in effect the crazy idea that you get paid without actually being at work means that you ARE transferring wealth from the company to you. Smacks of socialism to me!

And so does employer provided health insurance. More socialism. You know, it WAS Marx that first thought up the idea of labor unions. And a living wage. And for that matter, a working middle class as we know it today.

What people need to understand - and they DON'T - is that Marx's theories is NOT Soviet style communism. That was Lenin and later Stalin.

What pundits like to do is take one line from Marx (who by the way wrote a lot of stuff). To each according to need, from each according to ability.

And then try to say that is all there is to Marx.

Well how about this line from WEALTH OF NATIONS by Adam Smith. A primer on capitalism.

Man is self interested and greedy.

So we WANT a system that promotes self interest (screw everyone else) and greed?

Good thing Jesus was not simply greedy and self interested - or else he would have taken the fish and 5 loaves of bread and made lunch for himself. Screw everyone else. Let them get their own bread and fish!

So if Das Kapital can be reduced to one line, so can Wealth Of Nations.

Or does doing so make me a "communist" as well?

By the way, unemployment "benefits" (as if there is ANY benefit from involuntary losing your job) takes from those still working (the ability to pay into the system) and gives it to those with the need (those who have lost a job).

But whatever.

It is much more fun to just throw buzz words around.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Lazy, I agree with everything you just wrote with this exception:

We ARE relatively socialist now, in many ways. But we are a bastardized socialistic-republic nation and I really hate to see us go ever more toward pure socialism.

I DO agree that Big Business cannot be counted on. I do NOT believe in "trickle-down" economics. We have 30 years of proof that it does not work, and logically it doesn't make sense. I believed it when it was introduced in the 80s. I've come to see it is a pipe dream.

So yes, the government needs to intervene at times to keep us from being totally selfish and self-centered,and to ensure that we never have people starving in the streets while others sit comfortably in their mansions, dining on roast beef. Oliver Twist should always remain a thing of the past.

However, there is a balance to be maintained, and Obama will tip that balance to the extreme left.

Emma said...

Saur,

Far fetched or not, enough people are curious about these argued conspiracy theories. It's in Obama's best interest to simply dispel them once and for all and be done with it.

I did not have relations...

Oh, wait. That was a different liar we had to flesh out only with a lot of pressure.

Even if it turns out the Hawaii BC is legit, I would be glad it was pursued. You just never know and as you say, something doesn't sit right.

Emma said...

sorry....not hiding, just signed in to mail under my old profile. ug.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Emma, I'm so glad you popped over. Thanks for the contribution!

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

*cough*

Emma, FYI, he has dispelled them, read links I posted but more pressingly have you dispelled the theory that you dig up dead children and eat them becuase I've read it on the internet and it is scaring the shit out of me.

And while we talk liars, it's funny how a blow job is such a big deal but when a certain idiot king lies about:

Reasons for going to war
WMDs
Iraq'a military powers
Domestic spying
Iran's nuclear powers
Foiled terrorist plots
Torturing people
Human rights abuses
Huricane Katrina
Budget Deficit
Middle-Class Tax Cuts
Clean Air Legislation

(I could go on)

It's all right and no big deal.

YAY FOR AMERICA!

Emma said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Emma said...

Saur, let me rephrase...sometimes it is too easy to go that way.

Daniel,
Are you afraid of finding out the truth? I think it's only reasonable to question something that is such a deal breaker in becoming the President. And no, Obama has not been open about this because he hasn't disclosed the hospital he was born in.

Perhaps it's difficult when you weren't born there...but this is speculation that could be easily dispelled and Obama won't do it. Why not? It's American to ask why.

For the record, I don't eat dead children but apparently you aren't scared enough because you are still spouting shit. It warms my cockles though, that you can get so riled up over what you deem baseless accusations.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Well rephrased Alan, the original outburst broke many of Saur's rules.

In response then:

No, because it isn't true, something that is clear thanks to evidence. Marvellous that! Read the links, there is no eivdence for the claim, it was a smear, like all the other daft smears because the GOP (for once) is losing.

To repeat, it has been fully and openly dispelled by Obama and independents, read the court evidence link I put up.

Just to inform you, America does not have the patent for asking 'why' and my I remind you that asking why when the invasion of Iraq came up was not very American at all. That was for the French, so maybe asking why is a French thing to do?

I don't believe your child eating deniel, prove it (I hope you see my point here).

And it warms my cockles that you re-open a thread that has already been dismissed as a pile of partizan smearing nonsense, glad you're so riled up by the thought of an Obama victory.

Emma said...

Daniel,

Court records? Yes, valid point albeit courts are never wrong. The same courts that said OJ was not guilty.

You appear to equate your necro-cannibalism prodding to a Presidential candidate being asked to provide the truth.

Dude, it tastes like chicken, but don't ask, don't tell.

If you only answer one thing: Can you honestly say Obama has done all that he can to dispel these ideas? No, he hasn't and it has no bearing on what side of the isle he votes on.

Truth is something you should never be afraid to ask for. I certainly am not.

Since you don't know me or my ideals...for the record, I'm registered Independent. I'm certainly not happy with either of the two probables win. It's not like there aren't 5 other candidates running as well.

For the record, I LOVE closed threads but not closed minds.

If this thread is indeed closed why are you still here nearly a week later to defend when someone breaks from the sheeple and does not agree with you? I saw Saur's post in my google reads only last night and found it fascinating and well written, week old post or not.

heh, I'm sure Saur would have left up my old comment...she's open-minded that way, and I know first hand she loves the exchanges of debate badassery. (right Saur ;)

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

You've not read all the evidence I provided have you?

And then you try and say that legal evidence is not valid becasue you don;t like black people?

Joking fo course but you can't use OJ as a device to poo-poo court evidence can you?

Can you not see how desperately you're denying legitimate evidence to push your agenda. I don;t see you or the smear mongers providing a bean, how come it's one way only?

And yes he has, I have provided the raft of evidence, it is a non-issue, unless of course you're a desperate Elephant.

Truth is out there, pity Republicans don't like how it tastes. Like chicken I hear?

You confuse closed minds with an issue that has been answered by evidence based practice.

I subscribed to the thread so when people try and dig it back up when it's been dealt with I get to see it.

Cool.