Thursday, March 20, 2008

Religion and Barack Obama

I just ran across a fantastic post defending atheism on Craig's List (of all places!). I've known such thoughtful and intelligent atheists and he represents them well.

The only flaw I see is where he writes "According to a 1997 statistic, only 0.209% of prisoners incarcerated in the United States identify as atheists. Since atheists currently represent roughly 14% of the overall U.S. population, this is a significant indicator of the "morality" of the modern atheist."

If he had ever worked with the prison population, he would never have made such a statement. It's amazing how many inmates 'get religion' when they find out the benefits associated with it (extra time to go worship, people to fool, etc.).

And as I read it, I thought "Wouldn't it have been better for Barack to have been an atheist?"

I respect atheistic beliefs much more than I respect the beliefs of Barack's pastor, Jeremiah Wright. I respect atheistic beliefs more than I respect the beliefs of the muslim school that Barack went to as a child.

Sure there are the hostile atheists who attack other faiths with a lack of couth and grace. If they blaspheme the God I worship, I consider them to be the scum of the earth. After all, arguments can be made without attempting to deliberately wound and offend. And yet, is Jeremiah Wright any better?

In a recent speech placating the electorate, Barack asked how many of us ever disagreed with our pastors on something (the 'moral equivalency' argument). Barack's attempt to compare his pastor to the pastor of a decent church is like comparing a papercut to a decapitation.

I've been to many churches and heard many sermons. In fact, upon calculating it all, I think I'd already heard over 2,000 sermons by the time I was 18!

And yet, I have never heard a pastor use the word nigger. For that matter, I've never heard the matter of race ever come up except for the occasions when a pastor preached that there are no differences between the races and we are to love each other regardless of skin color.

I have never heard a pastor rail against a political candidate.

I have never heard a pastor cussing like a sailor from the pulpit (saying God damn and hell and using other swear words.)

Most pastors realize that they're role models and they are supposed to be an example of how we should all behave.

So, as the famous saying goes, what would Jesus do? Let's compare:

Jeremiah Wright preaches hatred and racial division. He swears from the pulpit.

Jesus never preached against the Romans (although the Jews had been conquered and lived under Roman rule). In fact, Jesus famously told us to turn the other cheek and told us to pay our taxes and obey the laws.

Jesus also taught that we should live in peace with our enemies, and gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke: This parable is told by Jesus in order to illustrate that compassion should be for all people.

Obviously Jeremiah Wright doesn't really believe in either Jesus or the Bible. What a shame that Barack considers him to be 'like an uncle' and claims him as a spiritual advisor.

Barack would have been better off as an atheist.

Please don't try to sell me the concept of the "African American" church being any different than the "Caucasian American" church. I've been to both. And, although I'm not black, I have been told that we supposedly believe in the same God. If we believe in the same God, then there should be no such glaring differences.

And my churches have all been of mixed races; black, white, latino, asian, and more. And yet I've rarely seen a white person attending any predominantly black church. Why? Because honkeys aren't welcome.

So if Jeremiah Wright is a racist, and preaches hate from the pulpit to such a degree that even Oprah Winfrey left the church...

Then what does it say about Barack Obama?


Loki said...

Al sharpton Jesse Jackson, There are done ,,, they have a double standard,,, when it come to whites and black,, there is racism in the United State, most of it is coming from the Black Americans,,,, How can Al Sharpton say, its ok for black to get imus fired,,, for the comments imus made, but Jeremiah Wright is ok thousands of excuses a double standard,, its time for Jesse and Al to get out of the lime light,,, Had respect for all sharpton,, until I seen him on Oreilly ,, Just like Obama,, I voted for Obama
in California,, but now when it comes time for the presidency He does not have my vote,, On CNN And Msnbc, I seen alot of barack Obama supporter out there saying
I Hilary is given the primary,,, with the super delegates,,, Obama supporter are going to Vote for McCain,,, there for OBama lost my Vote, in fact I will Vote for McCain,,
If OBama wins the primary,,, because

Barack Obama is a liar,,,

To all
Obama speech ,,,, Not sure if you caught Not only did Obama,,, Refuses to denounce him,, but even More,, He say in his own words,,,
Barack Obama was in church when Jeremiah Wright,, was spewing Anti-American, Racist ism ,,,, Those were his own words,,, barack was there
After going on keith Oberman ,Show obama said he would denounce that if he heard that language he would leave and not tolerate it , and denounce it
After he went on MSNBC,, he went on FOX CNN ABC< all the news station saying he was never there,,, in his church when he said these things,,
But Now today during his speech,,He states flat out Say's HE was there,,, Last week Barack Obama Lied,, went on all the news stations, and Lied,,
But your not reporting that,,,, You can rest assure,,, cnn ,,, Fox , ABC,,, Msnbc,, are getting more on this ,,, they will be reporting on this, and we will see
If you chose to report, Obama Lying on tv,,, If this was Hilary clinton lying and caught lying on all the new station,,, you can be sure,, you would talk about it every hour
people will be on your station debating this,,,, people analysing , if it is hilary clinton but it was not her it was Barack Obama, ,, it bad enought He lied, about being in church
With Jeremiah Write, when he said these anti american ,,,,,and still refuse to denounce him...all the news agency want to do is speak on how good his speech was,
Not that he lied,,, Last week on all the news agency ,, He was never there today in how own speech He say I was there,,,,should play all Obama videos from last week
stating he was not there,,, or heard any of the anti-american Jeremiah Write, said in his churc then play his speech today saying he was there and he did hear him in church and refuse to denounce Jeremiah Wright..

Groovy Mom said...

Good questions! I've been hearing about Obama's pastor the last few days, but haven't actually read or heard any of his words for myself. You've prompted me to rectify that now.

The Lazy Iguana said...

I can not believe that you are still falling for this.

1. Obama went to a Muslim school? Really? Which one? Where? The madrassa story was made up. Totally false. Never happened.
And if you do not believe CNN or France, then how about this source?
And then there is the official apology by Fox Noise, the propaganda network that pretends to be a "news" network. Or at least the closest thing I can find from Fox that says "we made all that crap up".,4670,ObamaReligion,00.html

So now....can everyone please get past stuff that is simply NOT true? If all the rabid right wingers have is bullshit, they will never win another election again. Which really would be fine with me.

You never heard a pastor rail against a candidate? Really? I have and I almost never attend church!
Go to ANY mega church website and you will find plenty of sermon transcripts and other stuff that rails against candidates. Also watch TBN or CBC for more than 5 minutes. Go to the websites for the big name TV preachers. Hagee would be a good place to start.

You have never heard a church use racial comments? The KKK considers itself a "Christian" organization. I am sure those sermons are full of sunshine and non-gay rainbows.

You have gone to white churches, I presume. Well if you are dark you may have a different outlook. When you are openly discriminated against maybe you have a different opinion. Face it - racism is around. It never went away. Black people are pissed off, and really they have reason to be pissed off.

But there is also a generation gap. There are the people who remember living under Jim Crow, and those who were born AFTER the civil rights movement. Blacks like Obama, who were either too young to remember Jim Crow or were never living under it who have became successful are aware of racism, but also know that it can be overcome.

Obama's pastor is of the older generation. So it is reasonable that the opinions and outlooks of the two men would be different. They have had different life experiences.

And again - you are falling for the bullshit. The clip shown on a loop on Fox is all of what - 20 seconds? 30 seconds? So you can take 20+ years of preaching and boil it down to 30 seconds? All his sermons only last for 10 or 15 seconds? He just gets up on the pulpit and says "America sucks ass" and then the service is over?

His "God Damn America" comment was said AFTER he talked about all sorts of things that this nation allowed to happen. He mentions that America was the last major democracy to condemn South Africa for the apartheid government (true), and several other things that were also true. Then he concludes "not God Bless America, but God Damn America". So in full context, the statement is less inflammatory.

As for the AIDS comment - the government may not have unleashed it on the population, but they sure as hell were not in a hurry to do anything about it. Not as long as AIDS was only for fags and drug users. When there were a disproportional number of blacks were getting infected again it was not a big deal. Ole Reagan was still calling it "gay cancer".

It was not till America realized that the disease was not just confined to fags, dark folk, or drug addicts was it suddenly a national problem. In the meantime, a lot of Americans were infected because the government did not order the blood supply screened, and was terrified that telling teens anything other than "sex is bad and dirty" would usher in a new era of moral decay. Meanwhile, only fags get AIDS right? Well that means that non gay sex is safe!!! Right!!?!?? I guess so. I do not use IV drugs and I am not a butt banger so that means I can not get the disease!

So did the government release the disease on the people? No, not really. But the government surely could have acted sooner to prevent the spread. But no, it did not fit in with the absurd views of the "moral majority" which are neither moral or the majority.

But do not expect Fox to EVER show anything in full context, unless it fits in with the propaganda they are trying to push. And do not expect the rest of the "liberal" media to say anything either - lest Fox accuse them of being liberal and biased.

By the way - I heard that Obama guy never pledges allegiance to the flag and he swore in on the Koran and he attended a radical Islamic school and was childhood friends with OSAMA!!! I got it in an email so it must be true!

Jamie Dawn said...

Well said, Saur.

My favorite line is this one:
"Barack's attempt to compare his pastor to the pastor of a decent church is like comparing a papercut to a decapitation."

That's SOoooo true!!

Jamie Dawn said...

Have a wonderful Easter!!

Saur♥Kraut said...

Lazy: Then why did Barack's parents list him as Muslim?

"Obama's mother, divorced from Obama's father, married a man from Indonesia named Lolo Soetoro, and the family relocated to the country from 1967-71. At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisis, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim, the religion of his stepfather.

The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering - Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant. Gibbs said he wasn't sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim." (from MSNBC)

And in Barack's book "Audacity to Hope", he admitted to learning basic Muslim beliefs and wrote:

"During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables."

...I'll reply to the rest shortly....

Saur♥Kraut said...

Lazy, at least you admit Mr. Wright's declaration about AIDS is a lie. Please don't try to justify it but saying the GOVERNMENT hasn't done enough to stop AIDS.

Here's how you prevent AIDS: Don't have sex. Or, second best option: If you have sex, wear a condom.

Yeah, yeah, I know - who wants to hear THAT? But that's the answer. The government has nothing to do with that. What, is Uncle Sam supposed to monitor us in the BEDROOM now?

The government cannot find a cure for regular cancer, either. Is THAT somehow the government's fault? Or is that less "sexy"?

...more when I can...

Saur♥Kraut said...

Lazy, OK, final thoughts:

If the government didn't react quick or strong enough to get the word out that AIDS is spread through blood, bodily fluids, and sex, how is it suddenly their fault? \

I seem to recall you're a little younger than I am, so you might not remember it, but at the time AIDS was discovered there was SO LITTLE KNOWN about it that everyone was in the dark. EVERYone was confused.

And it's not like we live in Russia. OUR government is NOT Big Brother (at least prior to the Patriot Act) and for the most part they are not responsible for our health and well being and choices (good or bad).

When AIDS came out, EVERYone was clamoring. Everyone had thoughts and opinions how it had to be handled. I remember distinctly that there were some very well respected scientists who believed it could be spread by mosquito.

20/20 hindsight is just as flawed.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Jamie Dawn, ;o) Happy Easter to you too, hon, (and your entire family).

Groovy Mom, thanks! Glad it was of interest!

Loki, you know... I heard that (about Obama admitting he HAD heard those controversial statements from Wright before). Scary, if true. Thanks for your weigh-ins!!!

Bird Spot said...

Below is a link to a column that thoughtfully expresses my attitudes to the issue of Obama and Religion. Christian Americans are no more homogenous in their religious beliefs and actions than are Americans of color, Americans who are women, Americans living in the South, or Americans that have brown eyes. I can't wait for Obama to be our next president. It gives me chills, makes me smile and want to cry just thinking about it.

Happy Easter, Saur, from one Christian to another!

Loki said...

Sorry to bust your bubble,,, Barack Obama not going to be President,,, He lost the Race,, Already,, but by all means keep your hopes up,,Obama Supporter claim if Hilary win the primary,,, Barack Obama supporter are going to vote for McCain because of that fact all most all Hilary Voter are doing the same thing not vote or vote for McCain,, Just a simple fact,, Not Only Barack Obama Can Not win a single big state,, He just can't do it, He need to win more than 1, to do it,, He thought before,,, if he got the delegates,, he could get Hilary voter help him carry the big states after Hilary Gone ,,, well that just backfired on him,,,, He only have half the delegates she has and half the VOtes,,,of the democratic party,,, McCain will beat him by a Land slide,,,, Obama,, will never step foot in the WHite House,, Oh I Take that Back He will step foot in the white house, To visit the president...Hilary or McCain... this Race is Lost,,, But keep the Faith,,,, lightning might Hit!!!!!

M@ said...

Black people are so paranoid... from my white perspective.

It's funny when I overhear them discussing politics how they automatically assume that I'm a republican.

They also refer to this mysterious "they," as in "they" won't let a black man or woman be president, "they" trying to keep a n*gger down.

This guy checking my groceries the other night was talking to another black guy about how they respect Hillary Clinton, however much they support Obama.

"Well, she got a good resume! New York's ONE of the biggest cities in the country."

I should have joined in and told the guy how I met both of those characters on different occasions and how I'm not a republican. Next time.

krok67 said...

Happy Easter.

Saur said...

Krok, Happy Easter, hon. Quit being all weird and imitating me elsewhere. Although imitation is the finest form of flattery, I'll pass. ;o) Besides, you're funny enough on your own and you often have some great insights! I'd love to see you start a blog of your own again. Do it! :D

m@, I'll agree with you. I'm a moderate Republican but sometimes I think I'm a Democrat (I've been registered as both). It's not easy to typecast the electorate any more!

Loki, I do agree - I don't think Barack has a chance. But, you never know - there's always a small chance so I won't say there's none at all... but I think everyone will be VERY surprised to see how few people vote for Barack in the final elections.

Bird Spot, but honey, why are you so emotionally caught up in his winning? He doesn't even have a strong platform, and there's no surety that he can run the country well or that he's any more pro Christians than he is anything else. In fact, his adherence to a racist preacher seems to indicate he doesn't view us whites favorably.

Yes, there are all types of religious beliefs out there, but what belief system says it's OK to spew racial hatred and swear from the pulpit? What religion encourages aksing for God's damnation upon the USA?

OK - the muslim faith might do so. But these are the actions of an ENEMY, not a misguided Christian.

True christians disagree on how to take communion. True Christians disagree on the music in a service. True Christians disagree on the refreshments after church.

What true Christians do NOT do is attack people for being a different skin color. They do NOT ask for God to damn the USA. They do NOT try to work up an ethnic group to hate another group. They do NOT preach divisiveness. They do NOT swear from the pulpit. They do NOT behave like they're Satanists.

Tea & Margaritas in My Garden said...

Many of us here in Canada are watching this battle for presidency with great interest. I don`t think there`s ever been such a mixed bag of candidates. But I tend to agree with you about who will actually win in the end. Can`t see the "powers and money behind the scenes" allowing a black man or a woman to win even, sadly, if they had no controvercy.