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Wednesday, June 29, 2005

Gay Marriage Legalized in Canada

Wow is this going to cause a storm of controversy. But you should know a couple things, first:

1. The majority of Canadians approve of gay marriage, where the majority of Americans don't. So comparing both nations is like comparing apples and oranges.
2. It's been debated for months, and won 158-133, with many conservatives vowing to work to unseat those that voted for it. So the law may not stand for long.

I'm going to repeat what I wrote in an earlier blog, because it was written before many of you began participating here:

No matter how you slice it, the law is a slippery thing. More slippery than we'd like it to be. And it all comes down to asking ourselves what is right, and what is wrong. And when you are agnostic, or atheistic, there is no baseline you can measure from (outside of personal convictions, which we can't easily justify or explain - if we are honest with ourselves.)

From a secular point of view, I can't see anything that bars the legalization of gay marriage except for the fact (as reported in The World and I) that they go through as many as 12 or more sexual partners a year on average (even if they're in a 'committed' relationship). Not my business, right? Unless their marriages are almost as frequent as their sex partners. Then it is my business. We would be looking at the potential for a major increase in divorces and the system would be overwhelmed.

'Easy', you say,' hire more people to handle all the divorces! That shouldn't bar their right to get married.' Well, it's not that easy. Because then we're talking about more taxpayer's dollars to hire these people and build (or expand) the courthouses and administrative offices across the country so that we can house them.

'Ah, but what price liberty?' you ask. I would reply that there are times when it is simply not economically feasible to give everyone everything that their hearts desire.

The gay marriage controversy boils down to whether or not it is a choice to be gay. And, there is evidence for each side of the matter. I think at this point less people care if it is a choice or if it isn't. They feel that the point is moot whether someone is compelled to do something or chooses to do it, as long as they're not injuring others while doing it. In my opinion, irregardless of why someone chooses a gay lifestyle, a secular case can be made that allowing gay marriage to be legalized would impact America negatively.

I have friends that are gay, and they know my position on this, and we remain friends. This isn't a personal attack, it is a carefully considered point of view. If gay people wish us to respect them and their point of view, they need to also respect ours even if they disagree with it.

39 comments:

back-to-basics said...
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Saur♥Kraut said...

Thanks, Michelle! I'll call you today, btw.

Always questioning said...

I agree with your position. Partly for the reasons you mentioned, and partly for a few others.

One reason is that once gay marriage becomes legal, or the lifestyle becomes considered "normal" it DOES become a choice. I can just see it now, teens struggling with their identity (sexual and otherwise), will then be pressured to decide between them. I see that beginning a new kind of experimentation with sex, where kids (who shouldn't be having sex in the first place) playing around to decide which way they should go. Once "normal" isn't considered normal anymore, our oversexed society will start expanding their horizons. Oh, yes, they'll still have their preferences, but that won't slow the activity.

That's just one secular reason, there are others - like the economic impact. What will happen to health insurance rates and Social Security (which is a mess already)? Will we then be readjusting all literature (textbooks, social program brochures) to include all types of marriages to make it mainstream? All this for a small segment of the population? We're already annoyed (some of us) by the fact that taxpayer pay to have much of our state information translated into Spanish in bulk. (I don't have a problem having translations available - but our FCAT scores were sent home in English, Spanish, and Creole!)

Aside from ANYONE's religious position - there would be a tremendous impact in the United States if homosexual marriage was legalized nationwide.

Anonymous said...

"From a secular point of view, I can't see anything that bars the legalization of gay marriage except for the fact (as reported in The World and I) that they go through as many as 12 or more sexual partners a year on average (even if they're in a 'committed' relationship). Not my business, right? Unless their marriages are almost as frequent as their sex partners. Then it is my business. We would be looking at the potential for a major increase in divorces and the system would be overwhelmed."

In reading the above comment I have to wonder how it's any different when hetrosexuals have many partners and also cheat within the marriage. If gays want to marry let them. Put them through the same pre-marriage requirements that hetrosexuals have to go through. Offer counseling, have them wait for a period of time before obtaining the actual license, etc. If two people are in a "true committed" relationship why not afford them the same respect as any other couple. People will get divorced no matter what type of marriage they are in.

Personally I happen to be a hetrosexual in a committed relationship, chooses not to get married and wish that I could be afforded the same rights as married couples. I want the social security if he dies, I want to have health insurance through his company or vice versa. But unfortunately society dictates we have to me married because that's what the "bible" says. Did I mention I'm raising two boys out of wedlock. But that's a whole other issue.

I say let the gays marry and maybe they won't flaunt their behavior so much.

back-to-basics said...
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Anonymous said...

That's my whole point...if gays and lesbians are afforded the rights as a married hetrosexual couple...then non-married hetrosexuals should get the same. Somehow that will never happen. The divorce lawyers would have to find another practice (if not married, then no divorce). As a non married hetrosexual, I already own half of everything he owns. I just can't collect social security through him. I would love to have health insurance since it's not offered through my employer.

Always questioning said...

Now, wait just a minute, anonymous. You do have the right to get married, you know. What kind of union are you looking for with your heterosexual partner that you can't already have? Is it just the word "marriage" that you don't like, or is there something else?

Always questioning said...

Anonymous said "I say let the gays marry and maybe they won't flaunt their behavior so much."

The legal right to marry is not where it will end. They want true equality, where their lifestyle is as widely acceptable as any other.

Also, I agree with your comment about promiscuity not being any different with the heterosexuals. It's horrible. That will not get any better until we (as a society) start teaching our children to keep their pants on.

Anonymous said...

always questioning....

Not afraid of marriage...I just choose not to be married (something we've both agreed on). Why would I need a piece of paper to show how committed I am to this person. The only thing that paper does is make my relationship legal in the courts eyes and in the eyes of society. I prefer to do things opposite of what society dictates. I already get the house, cars and 401k if he dies and vice versa. What else do I really need?

All I'm saying is that I want to be treated the same as a married couple. I will support marriage between gays and lesbians because that only futhers my movement for equality among non-married hetrosexuals.

Maybe society needs to think outside the box and figure how to make the world a better place instead of fighting it every inch of the way. Maybe people need to mind their own business on what goes on behind closed doors and worry about their own lives instead of who marries who.

Always questioning said...

Points taken, anonymous, and well said. But I believe that if you want to be a rebel, you will have to live with some consequences.

For example, you don't have any legal paper saying that you are committed to each other, so society is not willing to take on the extra expense of paying Social Security to you (if your partner dies) without proof that that is his intent. Let's say that SS creates a way of assigning that right to anyone you choose. Now we've placed the burden of your wishing to be rebellious on the taxpayers, because they will have to install a division to handle unmarried spouse issues as well as maintain a legal department to handle all the disputes and fraud.

Or what about the married man who lives with and decides he's now committed to another woman. How do we determine who is his rightful heir? What if he intends it to be both? You CAN love 2 women at the same time - just ask Michael Schiavo - and any number of men who cheat on their wives for whatever reason.

What about divorced women who collect alimony, because they can do that while living in a committed relationship (but not married)? Are you suggesting they should also be able to declare a committed relationship in order to reap the benefits of a "sort-of" marriage, but stay "single" in order to continue to reap the benefits of a divorced woman?

In my opinion, a legalized committment without marriage is the same as marriage, so why ask to have it changed? Just get married. Of course, legalizing homosexual marriage just adds same sex people/couples to this incredibly abused system.

back-to-basics said...
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Tabasamu said...

I agree with Michelle and Saur on this. I think our system is overburdened as it is. And, as politically incorrect as this may be: I think it's wrong. And I think it's obviously wrong and anyone with common sense would see that.

Senor Caiman said...

Except for the sex part, gays and lesbians are raising the bar for many straight people.

I remember in the days before gays you could attend the company Christmas Party and on Monday people would be saying “Mr. Gator is a pretty good dancer for a white boy”. No more, the gays bring their rent-a-dates and rhythm and the rug gets cut to shreds. It’s impossible for a straight male to compete with a gay male on the dance floor. And to make matters worse, the rent-a-date and her perfect body normally don’t impress the wives. To make a long story short, straight males have been forced to take dance lessons to keep up with the gays.

I never really new lesbians until I started going to the gym in the middle of the day. I was curious how these hot young women at the gym could drive a car nicer than mine and spend a good part of the day working out. As it turned out they were adult dancers and lesbian video actresses. When I heard the kind of money they were making it made me understand why women would convert to lesbianism. When I thought about all the things I’ve done for money, I concluded that being a lesbian is more than a lifestyle, but a lucrative career path.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Re: Anonymous Post of 10:32,

In reading the above comment I have to wonder how it's any different when hetrosexuals have many partners and also cheat within the marriage. If gays want to marry let them. Put them through the same pre-marriage requirements that hetrosexuals have to go through. Offer counseling, have them wait for a period of time before obtaining the actual license, etc. If two people are in a "true committed" relationship why not afford them the same respect as any other couple. People will get divorced no matter what type of marriage they are in.


Ah, but you missed my point. Of course there are hetersexuals that cheat on their mate. But it is a rare heterosexual that has 12 or more sexual experiences a year outside of his committed relationship. But in the gay community, it is common.

This means that unless it is an 'open' relationship, we will end up with a divorce. If you realize that the majority of gay males are very promiscuous, and that jealousy still exists in such relationships, then I think you will have to acknowledge that there will be a rise in divorce.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Always Questioning,

One reason is that once gay marriage becomes legal, or the lifestyle becomes considered "normal" it DOES become a choice. I can just see it now, teens struggling with their identity (sexual and otherwise), will then be pressured to decide between them. I see that beginning a new kind of experimentation with sex...

I consider your point valid, but be aware that there are many people who don't believe that this lifestyle is a choice, so they would argue that this would not impact anyone's sexual choices and it's a moot point.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Michelle,

Do you know that at my work if you are gay, living together, and can answer a questionare then your partner can get health insurance? BUT...if you are a man and a woman living together and can answer the questionare the same you CANNOT get health insurance for your partner. (unless you are over 65.)

How is that right? I call that discrimination.


I would say you are correct! Although it can be argued that heteros living together can always marry, I would say they have a choice just as gays have a choice to live together. Therefore, why penalize one for choosing the opposite sex and reward one for picking the same sex?

Saur♥Kraut said...

Mr. Gator,

As always you provide the comic relief with a bitter hint of sarcasm. Thanks for the funny contributions, my friend. Sorry about the dance class. ;o)

back-to-basics said...
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Saur♥Kraut said...

Michelle, yup! Call me on my cell? Thanks!

back-to-basics said...
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greatwhitebear said...

Mr. Gator...You should be grateful. Those gay men have forced you to learn a skill that will make you more desirable to the ladies (nothing says I'm gettin some like a great dancer).

Inspite of what James Dobson says, the scientific evidence is overwhelming that most homosexuality is genetic. Thats the reason you can tell by about the age of 5 which of your sons playmates are going to grow up to be gay. And who out their hasn't corrrectly predicted that one?

Those who don't fall under the genetic catagory usually fall under the "political" catagory. While this is usually women, it happens with men too. These are people who feel so badly misused or misunderstood by the opposite sex that they feel safer with members of their own sex. Which is why you see so many late 30ish types suddenly "switch teams", much to the chagrin of their spouse and children.

I live in a college town, and I see no evidence that gays are any more or less promiscuous than heterosexuals. And believe me, i see plenty of screwing around on both sides!

All that to say I really see no valid reason to deny gays the same rights we have as straights.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Great White Bear,

Thanks for weighing in w/ your opinion!

Anonymous said...

I'm a New Anonymous....

Wow. How can you people be so close minded! It seems to me that you want everything the gay couples get, but you don't want to give them what you get.

From what I have read it seems as if you think it is ok for us heteros to be able to marry and divorce anyone we want, but those homos, no no no! We can't let that happen. They don't deserve the same rights. Next thing you know we will end up having hetero and homo bathrooms and water fountains.

I am 25 years old and I am in my second marriage. Had things worked out the way they were going, this would actually be my 5th marriage. Yep, I was engaged 3 times before I actually went through with the 1st wedding. Wanna know why they all ended? BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL CHEATERS! All my hetero ex fiances were cheaters. They slept around, and with more than just one partner, I might add!

In my younger years I had my fare share of affairs. Granted, none of them were cheating, but I had well over 12 partners a year at some points. So... does this mean that I didn't deserve to get married the firs time and then divorce him? Does this mean that I didn't deserve to get married a second time?

WE ALL BLEED THE SAME! White skin, black skin, blue skin, red skin, hetero, homo, short, tall, fat, skinny, smart, stupid, ugly, attractive. WE ARE ALL HUMAN! We all deserve the same rights and privleges!

Answer me this.... how many gays do you actually know? Not that many huh? Well, then are you guys just quoting what you have heard, or seen on TV? Didn't your mothers ever tell you not to believe anything you hear on TV?

uch a close minded society! I don't understand it!

Senor Caiman said...

Great White Bear,

Not to alarm you but the Mexican Government is coming out with a Polar Bear stamp.

The lesbian think makes sense to me, but I just can’t come to grips with the gay thing. I’ve worked with numerous gay men and found them all to be intelligent individuals. We even disliked the same women in the office. Heck I’ve been accused of being metro-sexual myself.

I’m with you on the gene thing. I just have to take it a step farther and say that the gay tight jeans have been damaged in some way. It’s just not natural and shouldn’t be approved with a certificate.

Anonymous,

I know everything about gays. I have watched several episodes of Will & Grace. I know gays like to renovate houses and travel. They are anal about their weight and have little tolerance for incompetence. Don’t question my knowledge of gays again.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Anonymous poster of 5:33 PM

Thanks for your impassioned contribution. I am open minded and have many friends that are gay, but I must add: that doesn't make me any more qualified than someone who doesn't have gay friends. People are entitled to their opinions without having to meet your requirements.

For instance, I hope that I can weigh in on an argument about extraterrestrial life without having a relationship with a space alien.

There is a difference between being tolerant and open-minded and allowing just anything to happen in our society. For instance, what if child molesters argued that they were merely misunderstood? That they weren't physically hurting kids, they were just giving them pleasure. Would you say, OK, then let's allow them to continue their lifestyle? Of course not. You would do your research, realize that they are negatively impacting society, and make the right choice (I hope).

I am not saying that gays negatively impact our society (nor am I saying that they positively impact it). But I am addressing the issue of gay marriage and why it may negatively impact us.

Your argument that your heterosexual ex-fiances were all cheaters is erroneous. Simply because you have the tendency to pick cheaters does not mean that all men, or even most men, are cheaters. However, studies show that most homosexuals are.

I do recommend that you get an excellent book called "Codependency No More" by Beattie.

Anonymous said...

Who does these studies? How accurate are they truly? I mean, an election can be won falsely, why can't one of these studies be falsafied? *sorry about the spelling, I cannot spell very well*

back-to-basics said...
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Tabasamu said...

Anonymous poster, its really hard to falsify studies any more. But they can be slanted, of course. If you looked at Saur's original post, you'd see she mentioned an article in The World and I, which is a really good on-line magazine that had that study in it.

And honestly, girl, use your common sense. Everyone knows how promiscuous most gays are.

What would shock the hell outta everyone would be to see a study saying they're MONOGAMOUS.

Anonymous said...

That comment is like saying "Everyone knows that Mexicans drive Elcaminos, and blacks drive lowriders, Asians drive 'sukey-sukey' cars, and Texans all wear cowboy hats and drive trucks." Or, I like this one better.... "All blacks that are wearing red must be Bloods, and if they are wearing blue they must be Crips." How about, "All Americans deserve to die because they are all rich-white-Christians." This is all a form of discrimination and/or profileing. Be it racial, religious, or lifestyle. Who are we to judge?

Senor Caiman said...

Anonymous,

What rock did you crawl out from under? Mexicans drive old extended cab pick-up trucks, African Americans’ drive tricked out Cadillac Escalades or Chrysler 300’s. Asians drive Acura RSX’s with that tail pipe extension thing (compensating for other short comings I suppose) and Texan’s drive new Crew Cab Dualies. The only time I’ve seen blacks’ wearing all red or blue has been at college homecoming dinners up North and it was to show everyone that they had made it. I don’t apologize for being a rich white Christian, I’m all dressed up and I have a place to go. Oh, and yes I have a certificate that allows me to judge others. I’m somewhat impressed by your argument though, are you a masterdebator?

Tabasamu said...

Anonymous, I'm black and I don't go with stereotypes. But I'm also a realist.

For instance, if *I* were walking down a dark alley at night and saw a group of white priests walking toward me from one direction, and a group of black thugs from another direction, which direction would I go in? I'll help you out here: I'd walk toward the priests.

Sometimes it's not about being racial and sometimes it's not stereotyping. Sometimes it's just good old fashioned common sense. Do some reading, don't be so quick to weigh in without knowing your facts, and as Saur says - if you don't have any common sense, borrow someone else's.

I don't always agree with every white person, but I don't always agree with every black one too. I use the mind God gave me, and try to look at everything carefully. You might try it, because people will take you more seriously if you do.

Anonymous said...

It is interesting to me that you are proud to be a rich-white-christian, and in the same breath you talk about your certificate to judge. You must be one of those weekend christians.

Another anonymous said...

Or maybe he's an ACTUAL judge....

Just a thought.

Senor Caiman said...

Anonymous,

As my wife would say, “Mr. Gator, you’re going to be struck down by lightning”. My Pastor would rejoice if I were a weekend Christian. Would you believe 3 weekends a month? I can tell by your writing that you are a woman seeking answers. My pastor always encourages people to put God and family first and the rest will fall into line. My comments were intended to get you stirred up. Take a walk, have a hot tottie, vent with your bridge group and I’ll go tomorrow even if you don’t.

SmileDragon said...

WOW, a really heated discussion! Goodness. I say live and let live!

Dumas said...

I have always wondered how I would feel if I were somehow a minority, in any sense of the term. I think that it would be so defeating for me if I were denied the opportunity to legally commit myself to the adult of my choice.

Being a Canadian, I'm proud that our government has finally taken the steps to recognize homosexuals as equals under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I don't think that American's on a whole will be ready to accept legalized gay marriages anytime in the next 20 years. A big difference between American and Canadian society is the sheer numbers that make them up. Canada has roughly the population of California... I think it's much easier for our government officials to have a clear understanding of what the populous wants compared to those who govern the masses in America. It's by no means a slight on Americans, it's more my opinion as to why Canadians are more socially progressive than Americans.

To each his own... if homosexual couples really want to be married, cross the border and share your special day with us. No biggie...

As for the divorce rate comment... from the statistics that are being circulated these days, hetrosexuals are doing just fine at raising that rate on their own. :)

Saur♥Kraut said...

Dumas,

No doubt about the hetero divorce problem.

I have often struggled with that, too. It's usually mentioned as if it's a negative, and I can see how it can be.

However, there are times when divorce is healthy and a step in the right direction, too!

Still, my point wasn't about hetero divorce (which is already clogging up the courts) but what the burden would be on an already overburdened court system if we next had to deal with homosexual divorce.

Gambl0r said...

I was tempted to just wade into the conversation but instead I had a bit of a google search and I found article on gay divorce rates in the netherlands.

Here is a short quote:
"(Amsterdam, Netherlands) Gay Dutch couples appear to divorce at a rate of about one percent a year – the same rate as heterosexual married couples, according to government data released Monday.

The Netherlands legalized gay marriage in 2001 – the first country to do so – and the data released Monday was the first time the government has reported on gay divorce rates.

Between April 2001, when gay marriage was legalized, and December 2003 there have been 5,751 gay marriages and 63 divorces, according to figures gathered from city registers.

In the same period, there were around 243,000 heterosexual marriages and 2,800 heterosexual divorces in the country of 16 million."

Now to be fair that is only for a period of 4 years so it is hard to say what the percentages will be like in 10 years time but so said the percentage of straight married couples getting divorced is increasing at a phenominal rate all over the world.

Given the facts that we have at hand rather than guessing at what we perceive to be the case I don't personally see the potential divorce rate to be a good enough reason to continue to deny "gays" (as they are reffered to throughout this conversation) the same relationship rights as "straights".

I should probably also say I am straight and am in a relationship where we are planning to get married. (I'm also living in Ireland where the church still has the kind of grip on the state that there is NO hope of gay marriage being permited or even for gay relationships to be recognised by the state in any format in the near future.)

I should also point out that while I only have 3 gay friends they have all been in relationships for as long as I have known them and they have never been unfaithfull in that whole time (one of them over 3 years)

~QZ~ said...

huh? what are you all talking about with such vigor. I wish you all would address what I should make for dinner with this much heat, I would not have to fire up the stove