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Thursday, April 13, 2006

Living Together vs. Marriage

I'm about to discuss something that is highly controversial. I value each and every one of you, and honestly do not wish to offend anyone with this. Because it literally hits close to home with me, I've avoided discussing it before.

I'm a Christian and I've been living with someone instead of being married to him. Please spare me the platitudes of it being between God and I. Of course it is: Since it's not something I can be put in jail over, it must be between God and I. But that doesn't stop others from questioning if I'm a true Christian or not. That also is between God and I. I believe that I am a Christian, but believing that may not make it so, and I realize that too.

Is living with someone sinning, and if I'm sinning, than is this perpetual sin an indication that I'm not a Christian? Perhaps, but then my fellow churchgoers and Christians need to examine their own repetitive sins. From what I can see, one of the obvious repetitive sins is gluttony. And simply because the government has not acknowleged that I am married does not make it so.

I have been living with this man for six years because there are reasons that I don't wish it to become legally binding, but there have been enough good things that I've wished to remain with him. Yes, it's been my decision, and not his. No, he's not a Christian. He's agnostic, at best. And yes, I'm familiar with the scriptures about being "unequally yoked".

Studies seem to indicate that living together is not as healthy as marriage. But what they fail to examine is why. It is often said (or implied) that problems come from living together. Yet, in my opinion (based on experience and the experience of others) living together comes from problems. If the problems didn't exist, marriage would occur. Instead, the partners exist in relationship purgatory.

One obvious solution is to avoid being involved with someone if there are problems which would impede marriage. But it starts with "We'll be OK once we get this one little thing ironed out," and it escalates when the "one little thing" multiplies like nymphomaniac rabbits.

Of course if you keep sex out of the relationship before marriage, it also discourages living together, which helps you evaluate the situation from a distance for a while. But the problem with evaluating something from a distance is that you may never discover the problem until you are married. I've been there/done that already and have a failed 12 year marriage as a result of it.

I am tired, oh so tired, of smug assesments of me by other Christians. I am worn out from trying to decide if I should explain my reasoning, or just sweep it under the rug and be dishonest through silence.

45 comments:

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

I love living in sin although eventually the sin will be bypassed but it's good to be naughty.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Daniel, ;o) Ah, but since you don't believe in sin, what does it matter?

Whistle Britches said...

well now ms.saur, smug assessments is what I'm best at. I thought it was called discernment. dang it! I'm always getting this bible stuff wrong.
I always thought I would make a wonderful deacon. Not.
I don't want to be God either after seeing Bruce Almighty.
Morgan Freeman is doing a great job.
Can you tell I only got 4 hours of sleep last night?

Ed said...

For me, I don't have a problem with it among mature adults. They have been there, done that, and know what is needed or not needed in a relationship. I think you fall into this catagory Saur. But when I hear of teeny boppers or even early twenty somethings living together, I cringe a little bit. Mostly I am worried about their priorities in a relationship and how it will affect their future views towards marriage.

High Power Rocketry said...

I don’t understand the obsession with this fictional "American nuclear family". Lets face it, half of Americans get married only to be divorced again. It is not the norm anymore. Take a look to the bible: people got married back then by having sex. If you have sex, you are a married now. Is that really the best way to do things? In 2000 years, cant we change a bit? I mean going from the bronze age to the space age and all...

I certainly don’t believe in sin, or god for that matter. In my book, your only reason for doing good or bad (based on what you think those might be) is if it makes you feel good or not. Try as you might, there is nothing you do that isn’t because of how it makes you feel. Save your kids from a fire? Its because YOU love them. Give money to charity, because YOU WANT to help others. Religion has been tossed into a world too complex and rapidly evolving for it to work. So in order to fit faith into modern life, one or both have to bend. And they do, and this is just one example. I personally just drop the superstition altogether, but others are ok with creating a faith in their image. In a way, I have more respect for the fanatics (you know, the ones trying to kill atheist scientist American jews like me) who stick to the real bible or Koran. I just don’t understand altering god to fit you, but I certainly get why people need to. And why the catholic once a week sin erase system is so popular.

Enjoy your time on earth, I can assure you it is all we ever get.

mal said...

This one hits a real sore spot for me. You will recieve no judgements from me. I KNOW I am not without sin myself, so who am I to cast stones? None of us are without sin and it angers me when some of the "morally superior" feel they must correct the ways of others before they correct all their own.

If some "Christians" feel you owe them an explanation, then I would question whether they are truly Christian in their outlooks. In which case you still owe no explanation.

As you pointed out, our relationship with God is our relationship and ultimately we answer for it, not some self righteous busy body.

Go in Grace my friend *S*

Saur♥Kraut said...

Uncle Joe, discernment is so often supercilious judgement. Here are the common things I hear:

Q. If you're "as good as" married, why not just get married?

A. Because to get married is to create a legal tie to the other person and I'm not ready for that yet (with good cause). And otherwise we are married, practically speaking. There is no where in the Bible that says that marriage is a ceremony that the government recognizes.

Q. Fornication is sex outside of marriage. Don't you see this as fornication?

A. No, because I see this as a marriage. They didn't have government acknowledging marriage in the past, couples often made the decision to commit to each other, and that was that.

Q. But the Bible says to obey the laws of your government. So, how about that? Aren't you disobeying the laws?

A. It's not much of a law if it isn't enforced. There's a law in Florida that says you can only take a bath with your clothes on. Yup, it's still on the books. So everyone in Florida who bathes with their clothes off is violating the law, too.

Some Random Girl said...

As a Christian who has struggled with this myself, I shall weigh in.

I've done it all 3 ways....Got married w/out living together.

Lived together and no marriage ever happened...but the two kids did...

and got engaged...lived together once we got engaged and then got married (within a few months)

I also think that being with someone who doesn't have the same religious values as you sets you up for trouble later on. a good friend of mine is now dealing with that. Her husband is agnostic and she's not. They never really discussed their relationships wity God. NOw, they are struggling because she didn't realize how important it was for her and her now 2 year old son. She wishes things were different as far as her husbands ideas on God but they're not so she is dealing the best she can. I personally could not be with someone who didn't believe in God or didn't have a relationship with Him because I believe that strengthens our relationship.

The sin part: We sin every day. It's just daily life. Sometimes we do it knowingly and sometimes unknowingly.... I think God knows your heart and if you know you are sinning, you should rectify it because God says we will be punished. However, it's ultimately a personal thing with God. If you are feeling "convicted" that is a good indication that God is telling you something needs to change.

I don't believe in living together without marriage anymore. 50% more of those cohabitating relationships fail. They actually have a higher failure rate than marriages. I believe that's because there's not a little piece of paper binding you together and forcing you to try to make it work. It's all too easy to pack your shit and move when you don't have to see a lawyer. LIke I said, I have done it all 3 ways... I prefer the getting married. I would never live with someone again w/ out being married. I have found that it didn't give me what I desired which was a committed relationship with someone who wanted to commit to the rest of his life with me. I think that many more problems arise from someone's insecurity of not being married....I could go on and on all day. It's upto you. If you feel good about what you're doing then ...that's that.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Ed, I see your point and I understand, but the main reason I worry about kids under the age of 25 is that studies show that their brains aren't fully developed yet. And the part that isn't developed is the part that's responsible for making rational decisions. So, IMHO, no one under 25 should be allowed to marry or make any serious decisions. I honestly would argue that 25 should be when someone is considered an "adult", not 18.

Alex, I agree completely with your first paragraph, and with a great deal in your second paragraph. The only thing we disagree with is the concept of "sin". On the other hand, it's plausibly argued that the concept of "sin" is simply due to discouraging antisocial behavior in society, which would eventually destroy it. You have got a great point about fanatics: at least they are trying to live exactly as they believe they are supposed to live, and there is no compromising. On the other hand, if it's a violent faith that's not such a great idea and it goes back to the antisocial vs. society concept.

Mallory, thanks, hon. *hugs*

Saur♥Kraut said...

SRG, Thanks for weighing in. I think the reason that so many live-in relationships don't work is that (as I pointed out) they're living together because there are already problems or difficulties. It can't be that marriage forces you to work things out, when it's so easy to get a no-fault divorce (even when the partner doesn't wish to have one) or to simply move out and move away. It might be argued that there's a psychological difference for some people, but there isn't for us.

I do agree that it's difficult at times to find a commonality when your core beliefs aren't identical. But, I was in a marriage when our core beliefs were identical, and overall it was unhealthier, despite that. Now, if you're raising a child together, that certainly increases the stakes - no doubt.

Michael K. Althouse said...

I understand where you're coming from. I am, however, just a little surprised. Not that others, especially other "Christians" are judging you, but that you give a rat's *ss what they think.

Look, I'm like your BF, agnostic at best, but isn't there a comandment or something written somewhere about thou shall not judge or let he who is without sin cast the first stone? In a world where there is so much killing in God's name (Christian and otherwise), how can someone be concerned with another's "living arrangement?" Can anyone say hypocrite?

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, marriage is between two consenting adults and their God, not the government. The legal definition that comes with marriage is a man-made phenomenon, a state regulated domestic contract and nothing more. In a secular state, it CANT be anything more. It is not only possible but I dare say quite common to be "married" in heart but not in law.

Just my .02,

~ Mike

Whistle Britches said...

I hope you know i was joking.
I think you did.

Seems like I know a lot of people who have forced their supposed discernment on somebody else and cause more harm than good.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Uncle Joe, I suspected you were joking, but I knew you are my friend so I certainly didn't feel persecuted in any way. ;o) I still wanted to get that reply out to everyone, because it wasn't in my post and didn't really fit anywhere in it. *hugs*

Mike, excellent points. I think you're right in that perhaps I care more than I should about what people think. I suppose that has something to do with the fact that I am still a product of Christian fundamentalists (and an ex hubby who was a fundie) and yet I am not. There is no doubt some misplaced, residual guilt there. But I also hate feeling like a leper among people that I otherwise value. It makes it a difficult situation at times.

Ted said...

Thanks for sharing your heart with us but this is none of our business. You have free will and trust God and seek after Him don't you? If you try to explain anything we all do it can be called sin. The sacrifice Jesus made for us covered the sin issue past present and future. He is looking for faith action based on His Word not a list of do's and don'ts that we can monitor and pat each other on the back for conforming so well.You minister where you are and be open to the Spirit and work out the details with Him.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Ted, thank you, sweetie. The reason that I posted it finally is that the concept is really everyone's business, and it also is my personal experience / business. And I ultimately decided that not sharing it would be not sharing a part of me that is intrinsic to my daily life. And, the relationship is on the rocks right now (and we are considering "divorce") so it's even more on my mind than usual.

Some Random Girl said...

Saur:
I hope things work out for you.

rev. billy bob gisher ©2008 said...

have you seen the divorce rates?

for christians?


help a family law attorney's future

today...

get married.

Scott said...

Well here is the thing. I know lots of Christians and it has been my experience that they are good at judging others, but not so good at judging themselves. I say as long as you are comfortable with yourself then there is nothing to worry about. I certainly believe that any God would not forgive your perceived sin.

Cheers,

Scott

Saur♥Kraut said...

OK Slick, Happily Florida doesn't recognize common law marriage. :D

Scott, thank you. I've been told that it doesn't matter what *I* perceive, but what God perceives. But, I argue that I don't think God perceives it that way. I hope I'm right! ;o)

Rev, that reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Jurassic Park: I'm always on the lookout for another ex-Mrs. Malcolm...

Reverberate, thank you. I appreciate the honesty and am glad to see you value the writing.

SRG, thanks, hon! Only time will tell, as my mother always says.

Deb said...

Take me for example, Saur… My girlfriend and I have been living together for almost 12 years. We can’t get married ‘legally’ because the state won’t allow it; but even so, just because you ‘get married’ does not mean it’s going to be all hunky-dory afterwards. Do you know how many unhappy marriages there are out there? Too many to count. Look at the divorce rates? Now if the gay community were able to get married---the divorce rate would multiply like nymphomaniac rabbits!

As far as a Christian-based viewpoint, I seriously believe that God goes by your heart. If two people love one another and are monogamous, I believe that God handles it in His own way—and differently with each person. I know you’re a theologian and all, but you have to look beyond what is written, and interpret things more on the wisdom that does not come from this world. The one that comes from God. Wisdom and discernment of knowing ‘what’s right’…and what’s ‘not right’. I’m sure you have that intuition and guidance to help you through whatever struggle you’re dealing with. I’m in the same boat—but the gay cruise line instead.

Keep close to God and pray about it. That’s what I’ve been doing so far. It helps.

Jamie Dawn said...

We each make our own choices and must live with them.
Fellow Christians who pound you into the ground for living together should not be so quick to judge.
As you implied, they may deserve a good pounding themselves.
I don't like the idea of living together instead of getting married. I think it keeps the two people at arm's length as they know the other person can freely abandon the relationship on a whim.
BUT, I have not experienced divorce, so I cannot speak about how gun shy divorce would make one feel. I can see why many choose not to marry because they want to avoid a replay of what they've experienced.
Some Christians are smug and pious. Avoid that kind!!

Anonymous said...

Ditto Mr. Althouse. Couldn't have said it better.

Hope things work out as you need them to, Saur.

Ellen said...

For people to judge you on your living arrangements means that they have entirely too much time on their hands and not enough of their own deeds to attend to. I find that very unChristian-like, and frankly, none of their business.

I agree with tabasamu that you can have a level of commitment that equals marriage. In my mind, the piece of paper is for insurance and property reasons only.

Without divulging TMI, I know of people who have even stranger living arrangements, and their family unit works just fine. The heck with what anybody else thinks... and for the most part, most of their friends have come to accept the arrangement and think nothing of it anyway. It's actually much better than most marriages.

Eddo said...

Saur, I think as a christian we can sometimes know what is right and choose not to do it and for some reason we allow ourselves to continue because at least with the sin that we are living with we are comfortable with it. It is managemeable, it sometimes actually works much better than walking the straight and narrow path. I sin all the freakin' time. I don't think I am going to hell for it, I don't think you are going to hell for living with your man. God's saving grace makes our sins laughable at best, but that doesn't mean that we can't take sin seriously.

My biggest question is why have you decided to share this with us now? Does it mean that you are looking for affirmation, or are you looking for someone to tell you that you need to change?

One thing for certain, I love you, God loves you and people rarely need to be told when they are doing something that they know is wrong. What they do need is love and support no matter what. Unconditional love, that is what matters the most and I think when you have someone that loves you unconditionally then it is easier to give up the things that are so hard to let go of.

Much Love.

Deb said...

Wow, what great feedback you got Saur! I'm in awe. Hope you got what you were seeking...cause hell---I did just by all your reader's comments!

Saur♥Kraut said...

Deb, it's interesting, isn't it?

Eddo, I'm mentioning it now because I am facing some choices. I don't want advice either way, but I finally decided that I was going to share this, since it's intrinsically a part of who I am at the moment. Thanks for the encouragement and the love.

Ellen, thanks, hon. I appreciate your sharing your thoughts, and the support.

Tabasamu, welcome back! I like the new recipe, and the new look. You always struck me as a very independant thinker!

Kathleen, thanks, sweetie. Wish you had a blog, I'd love to read it.

Jamie Dawn, yes, in principal I prefer marriage over living together. As I wrote, living together is relationship purgatory. But I also appreciate your attempt to understand.

Deb, I'd like to think you're right, but then the Bible wouldn't have been written with certain guidelines if it was simply up to our own interpretation. On the other hand, we are living in different times where we've already adapted: women wear pants and crop their hair short, and don't exile themselves during their menstrual period (for examples) so the question is: is this something that we can adapt? I think it IS, again, as long as living together is seen to be as serious a commitment as marriage. And that differs.

Dave said...

I th'o't da Lord makes allowances fo' peeps wiff problem fro.

I th'o't uh lot o' middle age biAtchez seem ta take offense when they husband has sex wiff another biotch. If biAtchez could come ta grips wiff da fact dat dere iz uh distinct difference between sex during lunch hour at da hood motel vs. quick sex right 'bfoe ya hit da sack.

I like yo' young looking icon.
and git Tabasuma's fine butt back ova' heeah.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Mr. Gator, you belong in a mental ward, and that's why we love you. ;o) Michelle seems to like your new design, too! You are happenin', bro!

The Lazy Iguana said...

Is Florida a common law state? You may be "married" and not know it - at least in the eyes of the courts.

If you want to get all fundie - you are still in that first marriage. Not all churches accept divorce. You can of course get divorced, but according to the church you are still "married in the eyes of God" - and therefore ANY other relationship you get into is considered adultry.

As for me, my favorite deadly sin is sloth. Lust is a close second. Gluttony is only good in moderation.

Lee Ann said...

I completely understand where you are coming from. I think you need to answer to yourself and do what you think is best for you and your situation. Like so many other things, I don't see how people can judge you if they haven't been in your shoes!
Isn't that also part of being a Christian, not judging others?

Miss Cellania said...

Not all Christians are judgemental, it just seems that way because the judgmental ones are the loudest. Those who would refuse to condemn you only remain silent... until engaged in a conversation like this. Boy, Saur, you got a lot of friends!

And you are lucky to have someone for yourself. That is a treasure, whatever the legal status of your relationship.

Kristie said...

i commented once already, but blogger wouldnt post it. i doubt i can say it again as elequently, so i wont try.

You have no one to answer to besides yourself and your god. These "christians" (or should i say faux-christians) should remember that is not their place to judge you or anyone else for that matter. It isnt very christ-like to go around and act rude & condescending to others.

I am waiting for the actual facts and reasons people say living together leads to breakups...I mean, over 50% of marriages break up, so whats the problem? And marriage is govt institution. back in the day, it was a personal committment one made to another, possible in the eyes of others, or maybe not. If in your heart you are soley committed to this one man, then you are married in your heart and that is all that matters. Good thought provoking post as usual.

You shouldnt worry about what others think or say anyway. I usually like to think that if they have so little in their own lives they must focus on mine, then i must be special and they must be lame. ;)

Lila said...

'Taint a problem as far as I'm concerned. And I refuse to believe in a God that would mind it, as long as it's a healthy, loving relationship.

Miss Cellania said...

A little off-topic, but several have said that 50% of marriages break up. I beg to differ, 100% of marriages break up eventually.

Thats what leads me to believe its better to jump off that cliff and risk being hurt at the bottom, than to never know the joy of flying.

mikster said...

Hmmmmm.....well...the reasons to be together after 6 years must outweigh the reasons not to marry the guy. Something is better than nothing?

Wow...a comment that doesn't even make sense to me.

Valerie - Still Riding Forward said...

Ok, here is what I told my kid. She was "in a family way" and living with her co-creator.

Marriage paperwork completed and endorsed by the government is to assure proper care of the children in a relationship. It means that if your boyfriend slips and falls now, she is entitled to none of his estate (if there is any) and no support from him if you break up. It is to make sure you, also, are entitled to what he may leave behind to care for yourself and your child.

If you fall and die today it means your mother or other family member may raise your child, not your boyfriend, because they are closer legal blood tie to you.

With no children involved it's what is right in your heart.

The mate and I were just as 'married' in our hearts the two years we lived together as we were the eighteen we were married. We chose to be legally married to publically declare to everyone that this was our happiness, being together, and that it was permanant.

Those that thought we were a flash in the pan have learned differently now and I am proud to carry at least his name with me still.

If by some miracle I should meet a man I want to be with like that again I will be keeping his name. I may find a companion but I can not forsee ever finding a soul mate like him again. I may even "live in sin" rather than change my status or name. Who knows? Not me.

I am sorry to hear you're having troubles. Losing a friend of six years is hard, a lover and partner is even harder.

I wish you a happy ending, which ever way you go.

Tim said...

I'm a Christian and certainly not doubting your faith at all. Nor am I in a position to judge your current relationship situation.

My situation is similar in that I got married too young (immature) and had pre-marital sex. However, didn't see the problems we both had until it was too late and now I have a failed 9 1/2 year marriage to show for it.

Nice to know other Christians have similar problems....

Happy Easter saur.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Green, thank you. I think that many of us, as Christians, tend to work very hard at concealing any of our flaws or failings. I grew up in that rarified atmosphere of Christian fundies, and found that there were many secretly sad or repressed individuals who were terribly obsessed and consumed about what their fellow Christians thought of them. Talk about a stressful environment; you were always under examination. And yet, many of them had rather "horrible" secrets that later came out: some were gay, some cheating, some child molesters, some alcoholics, some were even actors. OK, kidding...

Valerie, you're right. That's the main reason to get married: for the entitlements and/or the ease of assignment of kids and property. But in our case, I'm completely self sufficient (I fought and struggled to achieve what I have) and we don't share child(ren) together. But I would've given your daughter the same advice. ;o)

Mike, you've hit the crux of the matter. I think in every relationship we ask ourselves what we are willing to compromise on: does the happiness outweigh the crap? The problem for me is that sometimes it was 70% good, 30% crap. Then it grew to a 50/50 situation and now I fear it is 30/70.

Miss C, 100% of marriages break up? How so? My folks are still together...? or do you mean people drift apart? Again, my parents haven't. But, strangely enough, we had breakfast together this morning and they brought up how weird it is that most marriages suck.

Saur♥Kraut said...

AP3, *hugz* I was thinking of you today. My assistant is going to try a UU Church this Sunday. Not for me, but I think it's tailor-made for her. I mentioned you and your family.

KristieD, your thoughts are very close to mine on the matter. I think people often focus on others because their lives are somewhat bleak. Of course, sometimes they're very happy they're not living that life but the ability to gossip about it gives them a slightly vicarious thrill.

Miss C, you commented twice! And you're right, I DO have a lot of friends. I am so very, very blessed. I started blogging a year ago in the hopes of finding people of similar mindsets, because it's so difficult to find them in my daily life. I have a couple very close friends here, but am delighted that I have friends elsewhere, too!!!

Lee Ann, the Christian fundies would say that judging is perfectly OK according to the Bible: what the Bible actually says is you're to judge only if YOU don't have that sin. And yet, Jesus told the men who were getting ready to stone the adulteress "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone", and they put down their rocks and slunk away.

Lazy Iguana, Thankfully, Florida is NOT a common law state. We could live together till I'm 70 and it would make no difference. Unless they change the law, which has been discussed. :P

AQ said...

I have really enjoyed reading the responses here, and I agree with many of them.

I can't judge, I've done worse. And I don't think I'd condemn you even if I hadn't done worse. It's really not my job. I think people should worry less about what their neighbors are doing and get their own lives in order. (Is that judgemental?)

However, I do have strong feelings about marriage, well, not really marriage, but commitment. Technically, I suppose I sort of agree with the posters that suggested that marriage - in God's eyes - takes place when you have sex. That's what seems to seal the deal biblically, sex outside of that relationship seems to be adultery or fornications as far as I can tell.

Really I think it's all semantics. I think society needs to be less free with sexuality and more serious about what a commitment is and should be. The way our families are falling apart really upsets me.

This is not a judgement on you, please understand that. I can tell you take this very seriously, it seems to be hurting you very much. Sometimes decisions have to be made - sometimes those decisions are to stay and work things out and sometimes they are not. I just wish more people would work harder at it. Because as you know - marriage really is work sometimes.

And then there's the legalism. I don't care if it's legalism in the church, or legalism in the government. People try to make laws and policies to cover each and every situation, but people are all so different, that can't work. It can't work for marriage either. So, I think we, as Christians, should leave it up to God to make those decisions.

I'm so glad I'm not Him.

Sorry to ramble. I hope I've made some sense.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Always! THERE you are! I'd thought you'd checked out, so I removed you from my list. If you're back, I'll put you up again. Sorry, didn't mean to omit you - some people just burn out and quit.

Excellent points, all of them. I don't think sex=marriage to God because the Bible is specific about "fornication". It wouldn't be, if fornication was instant marriage. It would also be a non-existent point when it came to adultery, though bigamy might be the rule.

But I DO think that marriage is a state of mind, the commitment that comes from a choice. It might begin with fornication, end with marriage, and yet not be a legal marriage. Where the commitment comes in might be the choice to move in together and combine households, IMHO.

Thanks for the sympathy. It is a difficult time right now, because "divorce" is currently what we're contemplating.

Tyson said...

i am SO SORRY for being late to this conversation, saur!

i personally believe God holds a very low bar for us to qualify as christians: basically, we must believe in Jesus and Jesus' work.

but as for morality, i would have to say that the perfect standard of God calls for marriage, as in a binding, life-long convenant between a man and a woman as the basis of a family. two adults in a monogamous but non-convenant relationship is permissable, but not the ideal, in my humble opinion.

Saur♥Kraut said...

TS, thank you so much for weighing in on this. I really appreciate your honesty and caring. You know, it really is dependant on another conversation for another time: salvation through faith alone? Or through works? Or through a combination of the two?

And the subsequent questions: Can you lose your salvation through sinning? OR does sinning repeatedly indicate that someone was never saved in the first place?

daveawayfromhome said...

Day late and a dollar short, but let me weigh in anyway.

Q: Could it be you are avoiding marriage because you wish to avoid divorce? Not that you necessarily think the marriage wont work, but because you are aware of the possibilty that any marriage might fail.

That said, I think the primary reason for the higher divorce rate is twofold:
1) People live longer. Once upon a time it was quite probable that your mate would die of any one of a number of causes, including disease, simple infection, or childbirth. Modern humans dont live any longer, there are just more of them that live to the limit. This makes it a lot easier to reach your limits as far as staying with another person.
2) Life is easier. You dont need that other person, and all those kids, to help you survive.

Anyway, dont worry about anyone's opinion about your relationship with God, except as (maybe) advice. It's between you and Him, or at least so any good Protestant will tell you.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Daveawayfromhome, undoubtedly you're correct: I'm also afraid of the marriage failing, which I see as a good possibility. As you point out, any marriage can fail, and our relationship appears to be struggling as it is.

I think your points 1 & 2 are correct, but I also think that religion played a large part in people staying together, even when they couldn't stand each other. At one time, it wasn't uncommon for married couples to not share the same bedroom (or even the same house!) in later years. And there are reasons for monogamy: increased chances of survival of the offspring. Men who are monogamous have mates who will continue to bear their progeny. Women who are mongamous have a mate that will help protect and provide for their offspring. It's win/win for survival of the species.