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Tuesday, March 28, 2006

A Muslim's Conversion to Christianity

In today's somewhat liberal St. Pete Times is an editorial questioning the tolerance of Islam. The author writes "The case (Abdul Rahman vs. Afghanistan) has outraged Christians worldwide. It has also dramatized how far Afghanistan remains from the tolerant, democratic nation President Bush envisioned when he committed thousands of troops and billions of dollars to ousting the extremist Taliban in 2001."

You know, I am amazed to see that most politicians and writers have done nothing to educate themselves on Islam, post 9/11. You would think it would be a pressing need to discuss any world events knowlegably, and when Islam is so central to a great deal of unrest, only a fool would ignore it or take someone else's word for what it is all about. The fact that Bush allowed Afghanistan to adopt sharia law (Islamic law) means that he is not at all educated about it, and neither are his advisors.

A couple fellow bloggers have touched upon the story of Abdul Rahman, but not many people are asking why the story has happened. And quickly the Islamic apologeticists are saying that the Koran does not sanction persecution of someone who converts from Islam to another religion. Apparently these apologists disagree with the majority of the Muslim leaders in the world. And there is a good reason for this: The Koran does sanction it.

You see, the Koran is a tricky document. It is nothing like the Bible, and the rules are different. The most important rule that any westerner needs to remember is that the Koran doesn't always agree with itself. And when it doesn't agree, the more recent proclamations trump the old ones. Because most of the more peaceful decrees and precedents were in the earlier writings, they are ignored by any Islamic scholars. Don't worry: there weren't many to begin with, anyway. (NOTE: It's important to know that the Koran isn't the sole document for Islamic law. They consider other writings to be of equal or near-equal importance. Many of these writings solidify the Islamic belief in violence and subjugation. Some are written by friends and followers of Mohammed and were eyewitnesses to the atrocities he committed).

But what about the peaceful Muslims? Surveys show that most Muslims don't read or know their Koran (many of them are illiterate). This includes even educated Muslims in America. They don't know what their faith teaches! Sadly, the clerics (such as Osama Bin Laden) have it right: Islam is a religion of war and oppression, as Mohammed taught clearly. Anyone claiming otherwise is either ignorant or deliberately trying to deceive by using verses from the Koran that were invalidated before they were born!

Here are some recent atrocities:

1) Egyptians arrested 22 people, many of them former Muslims who had secretly converted to Christianity, in October 2003. They were questioned and tortured.

2) In November 2003, Pakistani police arrested Anwar Masih, a Christian, on a charge of blasphemy simply due to a claim made by a hostile Muslim neighbor. Other Muslims attacked Masih's home, yet it was Masih who was arrested. The next month a Muslim mob entered a Christian church there and started attacking and beating the Christians. They desecrated the Bible and destroyed almost everything in the church, yet the police refused to make any arrests. In addition, the injured Christians were ignored at the hospital due to an influential local Muslim who forbid doctors from attending the wounded.

3) In November 2003, Boulos Farid Rezek-Allah Awad, a Coptic Christian married to a Christian convert from Islam, was arrested while attempting to leave the country and held for 12 hours. When an Egyptian security police officer asked him about his wife, Rezek-Allah told him that she had already left Egypt. Perhaps mindful of the death penalty for apostates, the officer responded, "I'll bring her back and cut her into pieces in front of you." Several months later, however, Rezek-Allah was allowed to leave Egypt and settle in Canada.

4) In May 2004 in Pakistan, another Christian was charged with blasphemy (Samuel Masih) and was beaten to death with a hammer by a Muslim policeman as he lay in a hospital bed suffering from tuberculosis.

And, of course, there are many more atrocities such as these that take place in countries where the law is based on Islamic teachings (you can read about some of them in the editorial I mentioned above). As anyone who has read the Koran, studied Islam, or even followed the news overseas would know. And any leader who doesn't bother to know such things needs to take a refresher course on how to be a leader.

P.S. Here is an excellent summary of Mohammed's personal path of violence. If it was good enough for Mohammed, it is certainly good enough for his followers.

42 comments:

High Power Rocketry said...

This is how it works... People try to say that islam is about peace, that it means peace... But, just with christianity, there is a long history of violence and converting people by force.

I am glad the guy was set free, it was pretty depressing to think that after a WAR, the government still had not changed enough for people to pick their own faith, or none at all I should add.

High Power Rocketry said...

Well to be fair, do the crusades, the inquisition, slavery, and the killing of the native Americans change your interest in Christianity? Lets be honest, Islam is very violent and always has been, but the most violent, the most destructive religion in history remains Christianity. Don’t think the Holocaust wasn’t connected to the Catholic Church either…

Saur♥Kraut said...

Alex, you are right, and yet you are wrong. There is much that is misunderstood about the Crusades. It IS true, however, that the Catholic Church is well-known for it's past atrocities. If you're really interested in learning about the Crusades, I highly recommend The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades.

Mindless Dribbler, I have to admit it isn't a fun read.

Saur♥Kraut said...

...and, of course, Christians aren't still carrying on with the Crusades. The whole thing died out before we were born. But the Muslims are continuing with their campaign against humanity.

High Power Rocketry said...

That is correct.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Alex, ;o)

Some Random Girl said...

good article and good replies. I agree with you. It's sad isn't it?

Anne said...

Oh the beauty of the Bible! So Absolute, Perfect and Complete.

Most who claim the name of Christ are just as ignorant of the contents of the Inspired Word of God as the Muslims are of the Koran. I had a discussion with a Muslim woman (of Arabic descent) last year who couldn't explain to me why she believed what she believed. I get the same answer from those who claim Christ's name as well.

Ignorance is never an excuse for anything. "Sorry Officer, I didn't now the speed limit was 35 MPH" - my ignorance doesn't excuse my guilt. If we claim the name of Christ we better be sure we abide by His laws.

John 14:15 "If you love Me , keep My commandments." NKJV

Also, it's not just Bush and his advisors who are ignorant of the Lord and His Will. Sadly there are FAR TOO MANY who are ignorant:

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." NKJV

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me,'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' NKJV

Thanks for allowing me to speak on your blog.

Deb said...

I have a friend (ex-boyfriend) who is Pakistani / Muslim. He doesn’t believe in violence nor believes that his God is a violent God.

I think it really boils down to how one person interprets their religion. I also believe that God speaks to us through different sources as well as gives us different paths to choose from. Who knows 100% for sure what God wants them to do unless they have a personal relationship with God? For instance, one scripture can mean something to someone…and another means a whole different story to someone else.

Religion, scriptures, history and beliefs will be debated time and time again. It will never end. I’m not disagreeing with you, Saur---but I’m just trying to say---who really knows unless their belief comes from within; comes from that personal relationship they have with their God.

Extremists. Every religion has them. Look at Christianity for one. We have the KKK who call themselves “Christians”. We also have loving Christians who accept everyone and who don’t judge one another. What about Muslims? There are loving Muslims who speak of peace and respect of fellow man (as my friend does)… This is why Muslims get that bad rap---because of the extremists. (In my beliefs of course)

Different sectors and different interpretations can really affect the way someone views a religion that they’re not familiar with. Even if you studied the Koran – it’s all about interpretations.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Deb, well, hon, it's really not about interpretations. The Koran is quite clear. However, that's not to say that (if you choose) you can take the parts you like and leave the rest (as many "christians" do, too). Then it becomes "Cafeteria Religion" - you pick what you like and leave the rest. That's fine, but it's not true Islam.

Anne, thank you!

Some Random Girl, It IS very sad. Especially for the women in those countries. My heart aches for them and their daughters.

Whistle Britches said...

I love your discussions. They make my brain cells grow..
Maybe my hair follicles will begin to take note also..

Ellen said...

The information in this post makes me wonder why our leaders so mindlessly led us into war in the first place. You put it so nicely with your last sentence... they forgot to take their refresher course on world history.

We have become so embroiled in this war that we can't just pull out anymore, and it has left a bad taste in the mouth of the world. We are fighting a religious sect that has no boundries except what they deem at the end of the day, or make up along the way. Where were the advisors to the President before this all happened? Obviously not reading up on the facts of history as they should have been.

In the meantime, everybody suffers while we stand around and try to be politically correct. If the Islamic nation has no regard for our way of life, and never has, what makes Bush and Co. think he can pull a rabbit out of his hat?
Oh wait.... that's right, Bush has already admitted that this might go on past his Presidency. How's that for *shock & awe*, Mr. Bush?

Funny thing.... your word veri:
bamuem.

Deb said...

I’m quite impressed that you’ve studied the entire Koran and know more than the average Muslim. Still, it’s debatable. Your personal relationship with God is key… I still don’t understand how a religion can state that “killing” for your God is acceptable. Most of all, the reward for killing Christians are 72 virgins waiting at the pearly gates. Who wants an inexperienced woman anyway?

I don’t understand Islam, and I probably will never. I do know that fighting against terrorism is imperative. They even have their children learning how to shoot guns and weapons at the age of three! They’re born to kill basically. The enemy: Americans & Christians.

The KKK have their young ones learning at an early age to burn crosses on those who are black, Jewish, homosexuals, Asians, etc… They’re “Christians”. Have you ever gone to one of their websites claiming that Jesus is their savior and how everyone else who don’t believe in their evil doings are going to burn in hell? It’s ironic…and it’s sad.

Back to Christianity though…yes…you can pull parts of the bible apart and leave out the rest. But undoubtedly, I still believe that God is an all forgiving God. We all fall short, whether you lie, gossip (and who doesn’t really), think impure thoughts, curse, eat shellfish, adultery, being homosexual-----so are we “all” going to hell?

Religion in itself is a negative word. Loving God is a wonderful thing. Being good to one another is… Muslims who kill for God----that’s not loving God---that’s living for worldly matters and placing earthly situations on the same level as spirituality.

God (whether Muslim/Christianity or any other religion) looks at your heart.

Anne said...

Lack of knowledge:

Romans 10:1-4 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." NKJV

We ALL on this planet have been given the same guide Book and we are to go at that Book with one thing in mind - to know what HE wants. Not what I want. Our Perfect Example prayed "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." Luke 22:42 (NKJV)

Saying I interpret the speed limit sign different from the guy driving down the road behind me doesn't excuse me from the TRUE interpretation of the law - nor does it make sense. Everyone would think us insane if we lived life "under the sun" the same way we interpreted the Inspired Scriptures. Rules are rules and law is law - they are not based on individual interpretation.

Do we believe the instruction manual in the box with the VCR is there to be interpreted as we wish in order to get the VCR to work? Only those who choose to follow those instructions will have a working VCR.

Also, I don't believe God gives us different paths to choose from. If that were so there could be no false doctrine. Yet, Jesus warns against such: Matt. 7:15; 15:13-14; 2Cor. 11:14-15; 1John 4:1. The Apostles warned against perverting the Gospel: Gal. 1:6-8; corrupting the Word 2Cor. 2:17; fables 2Tim. 4:2-4. God allows us to believe a lie if we reject the Truth 2Thess. 2:10-12 - this is a fearful verse when you realize that one can so reject the truth that a lie seems just as real to him as truth.

If it makes no difference what one believes, the ultimate conclusion would be that it makes no difference what the Bible says; but this verse alone proves that concept false.

Please know that I do not believe myself to have all the answers for there are things hard to understand (2Pet. 3:16). But, what we need to know for salvation purposes is easy to understand if we go at it with His Will as our priority.

Thank you again Saur for letting me vent. It's a venting day for me I think. I now must go and get out of my jammies since it’s 12:30 in the afternoon.

P.S. It's hard to teach a Muslim when we don't know what they believe. It takes effort to be a worker for the Lord. I commend you Saur on your knowledge. I am still learning about Islam.

rev. billy bob gisher ©2008 said...

"You know, I am amazed to see that most politicians and writers have done nothing to educate themselves on Islam,"

1)this would require actual effort

2)why bother when you have massive stocks of munitions?

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Alex and Deb are articulating my thoughts nicely, Alex is bringing in the fact that other religions that share the same God as Islam all have blood on their hands, no more and no less than those that call themselves Muslim.

While Deb is articulating my thoughts on human expressions of faith and the lengths they will go to, to justify subhuman behaviour.

Also, we have to careful here, Islam is the current whipping boy of the right and debate is leading towards demonising a whole religion and its followers which is not only dangerous but irresponsible.

Islam is no more a threat than Christianity or Zionism.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Daniel, not really. Christianity and Judaism are not faiths that advocate forcing others to either convert, be subjugated, or be killed. And even if atrocities were committed in the name of those religions before, they are not used by civilized people to excuse antisocial and aggressive behaviors now.

Rev, 'zactly!

Anne, no matter how "politically incorrect" you are, you are completely right when you say Saying I interpret the speed limit sign different from the guy driving down the road behind me doesn't excuse me from the TRUE interpretation of the law - nor does it make sense. It would be very nice if it was otherwise. It would keep many of us from having to take a stand and I would like that ever so much better. But, the truth is the truth, and you're correct about that. Of course if someone chooses to discard bits and pieces of the Bible, that's classic Cafeteria Christianity. But it also begs the question: which parts do I choose to keep, and which to discard? *I* have no easy answers to that question.

Deb, I've studied the Koran because I felt it was important to do so, as a social commentator and freelance journalist. However, I don't claim to be an expert on it, yet I've also read scholarly works about it. And all interpretations that I've read agree with what I've said here.

Of course it's easy to say I know more about the Koran than most Muslims, because most Muslims don't know their scriptures (any more than most Christians actually do). If they have been devout Muslims and memorized their Koran, it is most likely memorized by rote in a language that is not even their native tongue.

I definately believe there are some peaceful Muslims. My only argument is that they aren't following the teaching of their faith (yay!). In "An Introduction to Islamic Law" by Joseph Schacht (pub. 1982) he says "The basis of the Islamic attitude toward unbelievers is the law of war; they must be either converted or subjugated or killed."

Ellen, yes, what a mess it is indeed.

Uncle Joe, well one can always hope... who knows, maybe I'm the next health fad!

Saur♥Kraut said...

Incidentally, for anyone interested, here is a good summary of sharia law.

Anne said...

Ah, "choice". I would hope we choose to keep ALL of the New Testament - since He died for it.

We DO have free will though.

Can you believe I am STILL in my jammies? Between homeschooling and blogging and feeding everyone I'm never gonna get cleaned up.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Anne, There is much argument about a woman's role in the modern day church: was Paul only expressing an opinion when he asked women to assume headcoverings and be silent in the churches, or was he stating a mandate from God? This is a key discussion in many Christian and christian churches. And the concept of "free will" vs. predestination. Whew is complicated. I've even heard some people argue that if you are to believe everything in scripture at face-value, you must somehow believe in both. And of course the New Testament didn't abolish all OT law. So, what about women being "unclean" during menstruation and after giving birth? Etc., etc.... Of course now we're digressing and discussing something other than the topic, but I thought you'd be interested.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Anne, P.S. I've had days like that too! ;o)

Saur♥Kraut said...

Here is The Koran online, if anyone is interested.

You might check out Mohammed's wish upon one of his enemies:
[111.1] Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.
[111.2] His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.
[111.3] He shall soon burn in fire that flames,
[111.4] And his wife, the bearer of fuel,
[111.5] Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope.


Nice, huh? Remember the Mohammed is their equivalent to Jesus. This guy is not something that has been replaced by anything more civilized.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Suzie, ah well, join all the other onlookers today and relax. You're having a tough day anyway.

Anonymous said...

I've tried reading the Koran before. It always looked to me as if Mohammed was smoking WAY too much on his hookah pipe to write clearly. It's a rambling nightmare.

Anne said...

I'm a simple Christian. Believing in the New Testament. I believe the old law was nailed to the cross: Colossians 2:14 "...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." NKJV

As for the modern day church: Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." NKJV I believe this.

I believe the apostles were inspired and were guided by the Holy Spirit as Jesus told them: John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." NKJV

John 16:13-15 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you." NKJV

I therefore believe all of the New Testament and believe I must live by It. Like you said - I don't believe I can pick and choose. Even if it's something I don't personally agree with. God has reason for why His Word says what it says. My kids don't like what I tell them either (and don't always understand it) - but their job is to be obedient. There is reason for what I and The Hubbs tell them.

Head coverings - I pondered this when I first saw them being worn and then went to the scriptures: 1 Corinthians 11:15 "for her hair is given to her for a covering." NASB Reads pretty simple - I believe it.

Women being silent in the churches - I can only read the scriptures (God's Word) to find out about it. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church." NKJV Am I to believe or disbelieve what God's Word says? If I believe the Apostles were guided into ALL TRUTH - I believe this to be part of the ALL TRUTH.

Like I mentioned (in not the same words) I need to take my own predetermined desires out of the picture when studying scripture and sacrifice myself and my desires for Him. Whether I like it or not. I didn’t go to the scripture about the head covering in order to prove that I didn’t have to wear it – I went to it to find out what God's Word said. I didn't read the scripture about women keeping silent in the churches and freak out either (believe me - I'm all about women's liberation).

If I'M not careful, it is me and my free will that confuses God's Word. 1 Corinthians 14:33 "...God is not the author of confusion..." NKJV I believe this.

Please know I'm not in any way trying to be divisive. Again, thanks Saur for allowing me here in your space.

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one with days like this. It's 3:50 and the jammies are still hangin' in there.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Anne, no problem! I always welcome a good discussion/debate and I do it in love and sense that you do, too. And I don't think you're being divisive at all. So, let me dig in:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. -Jesus, Matt. 5:17

This seems to indicate that unless he specified otherwise, the law was to remain in place. And Col. 2:14 is referring to the debt of sin, not all OT laws.

As for I Cor. 11:15, I hate to tell you this, but the word "covering" is "kata", which is better translated as "veil". It is not the same word for covering that is found in vs. 5-6. And let's look at this practically: in vs. 5 Paul clearly says that a woman with her head uncovered is just as disgraced as bald woman. So he obviously isn't speaking of "hair" as the headcovering here. I actually know this and choose to go without a head covering because I feel that this is something that was true of that time, and is no longer. I don't see it as a sacred law. But if that's the case, then the part about women staying silent in the churches may also have been applicable only to the times of Paul and the apostles.

Now, there are some women who have realized that this literally means that Paul is saying they must cover their head in church, so they do it: They wear scarves or hats. And this is the literal translation. But it's one that people gloss over, just as they gloss over the sin of gluttony when preaching to a church full of overweight Americans. ;o)

Anne said...

Okay, I'm back but now I'm showered and dressed. I will reply later - The Hubbs is home and everyone's in "demand" mode.

Good discussions/debates are another vehicle for the increase in knowledge.

Bryan said...

An excellent point about sharia law. Were you also aware that Canada is now beginning to be heavily influenced by sharia law? And that it is headed our way as well? Muslims are very well organized and they have been infiltrating, quite successfully, the Canadian and American cultures for years now. It is also a very prominent religion within our prison systems.

The pod cast which I posted a link to on my blog goes into detail about the chilling effects that are beginning to be felt in Canada with regard to sharia law.

Jenn said...

People don't want to look into the truth or talk about it. It's not politically correct for the president or anyone in government to mention this stuff.

Dave said...

Saur,

Excellent post. My neighbor is Muslim and my only complaint is he washes all his cars with a pressure washer that is very loud. I tell you I've had a lot more annoying neighbors.

The Zombieslayer said...

The stats speak for themselves.

Sure there are whackos in all faiths. Muslims just seem to have the majority of them. Hot spots in Thailand - where the Muslims are. Hot spots in Philippines - where the Muslims are. Hot spots in, well, just about everywhere in the world - where the Muslims are.

Screw political correctness and all this feel good crap. Not all Muslims are whackos, but most whackos who are killing each other in the name of God are Muslims.

You got serious guts for posting this. Hopefully nobody will issue a fatwa against you. Or worse yet, hopefully the p.c. police won't harass you non-stop.

Jamie Dawn said...

Stories like this really make me sick to my stomach.
The kind of freedom we have here will be impossible to replicate in the Middle East.

personal update:
Our weekend was a whirlwind. The 50th anniversary dinner party was wonderful, and Courtney's media presentation made everyone cry. It was a lot of work for all of us, but it was worth it.
Courtney had her sinus surgery on Monday morning, and she is doing well. She's got a drippy, bloody nose, but her pain is not bad. She will be fully recovered in about a week.

Anonymous said...

This is very interesting reading. I'm always interested in learning more about how my faith compares to the religions of others.

Interesting what you say about Egyptians arresting Christians. My husband met an Egyptian recently who had relocated his entire family to the US because they were persecuted in Egypt for being Christians. I had no idea, until I heard his story.

Tyson said...

thanks for posting about this, saur. if anyone could take this head-on, it's you.

i would like to say that i agree islam is a innately violent religion, but can't because i haven't studied it as well as you have. i did take an islamic texts class in university, but after remembering what they taught about christianity in my university, i didn't think the "islam" class would do the religion justice.

i think the best way to learn about islam would be to have a dialogue with a muslim who takes their faith seriously. i'd really enjoy that, actually.

Saur♥Kraut said...

TS, I would love to speak to a (polite and intellectual) Muslim, too. But much of what we DO know comes from such sources. Sadly, they're not as common as we'd like.

Monique, most people don't realize the Egyptian gov't. is becoming more aggressively Muslim. They also recently rounded up and persecuted a bunch of gay men, including torture and "rehabilitation".

Jamie, I'm so very glad to hear Courtney's better. Weekends are sometimes so unrestful that you can't wait for the week to start!

Zombieslayer, thank you. We agree. I don't think they'd bother to be upset with ME. I'm not calling Mohammed any names, I'm not saying anything untruthful about their religion, and I'm not perverting the Koran.

Jenn, it IS very sad, because it's really not a matter of being politically correct! It would be wrong to discriminate against a people for their skin color or their culture, but when you mix religion with politics, you always get a mess. That's why our Founding Fathers fought so hard against it.

Bryan, I wasn't aware of it, but I'm not surprised. According to a famous lecturer that I listed to in the early 90s, this is typical of the way that they overtake a country and end up reigning and enforcing the sharia law. Look at the history of Algeria if you want to read anything terrifying. Most people don't know it. You won't sleep well.

Anne, any time! ;o)

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Sorry Saur but your response is full of a bias based upon your personal feeling of Islam and the current climate of hate that we exist in.

For example, when I was a kid who lived under a regular threat of IRA bombings all the talk was of how 'evil' the Catholic faith was.

We live in a dangerous time, a whole faith and it's followers are being oppressed and generalisations being made.

Another example, 'acts of terror' by the UK and US far outway those of any Islamic groups, both of these nations have overtly Chrisitain leaders, do you see where I'm heading?

Or let us turn to Israel and the terrible atrocities is carries out, now do a swap and let's say in Iran there was a small piece of land belonging to Christians and they were being treated in a subhuman way.

And now the myth of troubled world hot spots all being Islamic, not true, Africa is still the hotbed for violence and war and most of these nations, if not animist are Christian; why do we not blame religion here and the doctrine of violence?

So yes, Christianity and Judaism are faiths that advocate forcing others to either convert, be subjugated, or be killed.

Read the comments to this thread, see the language that many people use when they refer to Islam, it is not a great leap to see the language of fear and hatred that the Nazi's used against the Jews and McCarthy era US used against Communists, or white supremists used against black people.

As I said, we live in dangerous times but it's not the Muslims I'm scared of.

And now Bush is building another case for war against another great Islamic nation, if I was a Muslim, I would soon consider to pick up a weapon and defend my religion by force.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Daniel, actually, you're very wrong. Of course only *I* can know my true motivations, but I am excellent at self-analysis and can tell you that I know this. You will have to believe that, or not believe that, as you choose.

I cannot be responsible for what anyone said about the Catholic faith during the IRA bombings and unrest. Not being Catholic, I don't particularly care one way or the other, but the ignorance is obvious: there were no priests and no Pope (in modern centuries) that encourage genocide because of religion.

Additionally, there is no Jewish or Christian leader that sanctions killing, maiming, or persecuting others who don't adopt their faith. Have there been atrocities committed by all religions in the past? Of course. But it's whether or not the religion actually sanctions those atrocities that makes the difference.

And when in doubt, go to the source. Jesus didn't tell his followers to kill, maim, or subjugate anyone who doesn't believe in him. In fact, he told them to leave if the gospel was rejected (not every missionary does, but that's contrary to scripture).

However, Mohammed made it very clear that he did advocate such practices with his religion.

The differences are obvious, and stating the truth is not biased; simply pragmatic.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Jesus may not have done but the Christian God is a vengeful and violent one and Chrisitans and Jews can have as many Holy Wars as the Muslim faith can.

My comment stands, dangerous times for oppression of the Muslim faith.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Daniel, no one is trying to oppress the Muslim faith, least of all me. What I am trying to do is educate people on the fact that the terrorists (or, as you like to refer to them, freedom fighters) are justified in what they're doing by the fact that their religion encourages it.

Muslims who can't really practice their religion without brutalizing others shouldn't be allowed that luxury, any more than Christians or Jewish people should be allowed to do it.

However, if a Muslim chooses to not be violent or impose his beliefs on others, than he can certainly practice his faith and I have no problems with that.

I'll add that the same goes for all other religions, including Santeria or religions that believe in human sacrifice.

Sorry, hon, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Indeed we will but at elast we did it in a civil matter and not call each other names or behave in such an entrenched way that we lost respect for each other.

Hurrah for decent debate!

Saur♥Kraut said...

Daniel, yes. That's why I respect you and consider you a friend. *hugs*

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

HUGS!